Questioning “dry base layers for sleeping”.

yeah sorry – i wasn't thinking winter at all….

Justin, you're rephrasing makes a lot more sense to me. Yes, if you're in a climate cold enough to warrant a full-puffy outfit around camp, this makes sense to me. Same sort of scenario where some like a wearable quilt.

Honestly, the big issue for most is the price of entry: replacing long johns with down is a costly proposition, but a good option if you already have superlight down pieces. Also, down has to be babied a bit more–long johns can take some abuse.

If you're focusing on winter then having a good base layer is very important. Do people normally take an additional sleeping only base layers in winter?

On winter trips I don't typically take puffy pants, just heavy weight fleece tights that I wear over my base layer and under outer shell pants that may or may not have insulation. I usually wear my wind shirt over my base layer and then add my puffy if I need the warmth at night. In winter I do not carry specific sleep clothes as I tend to plan for requiring all my clothing for the coldest nights I don't wash or rinse anything on a daily basis and quite frankly don't get or feel as dirty at the end of the day.

"Yes, if you're in a climate cold enough to warrant a full-puffy outfit around camp"

Exactly! Thanks for helping me clarify that.

For me I get cold easy when I stop, so I layer up pretty well. My montbell mirage is my go-to puffy even up to like 45 degrees.

simply put … having the down jacket next to your skin will subject it to body vapor going into the down … and what is basically sweat and body oils will degrade the down over time losing loft if the conditions are very humid … not to mention youll need to wash the down more often in the long run, degrading that $$$$ down poofay faster

also many down jackets are less than breathable due to the need to be "downproof" … these arent high CFM nylon were talking about here …leading to a clammy feeling against the skin

;)

Eric, if I was wearing a poly base layer, wouldn't the moisture vapor go into the down anyways? It has to go somewhere.

Good point about it getting dirty, a base layer set should help block the oils from getting into the down.

some of it would, some would get absorbed by the base layer ….

remember that in a nasty rainstorm unless you got a large towel, yr still pretty damp/wet after you strip off … and if its near freezing you cant stay stripped for too long …

that moisture will go directly into the down jacket if theres no base layer …

for a simple experiment … take a cold shower, shake yourself off for a few seconds (no towel), and get into yr down poofay outside on yr deck at night rain (cold)…

the other thing is that a good base layer is meant to provide a "next to the skin" dryish feeling as moisture thats next to the skin is the worst for heat loss … a down jacket wont help with that one bit …

;)

"I am suggesting taking your polyester long underwear tops/bottoms reserved for your sleeping bag and replacing them with an ultralight down jacket and ultralight down pants, which would be about the same weight and much warmer."

My base layer tops and bottoms are part of a clothing system – not just glorified PJs. Of course they're good for that, but guess what stays on under my usual trail wear when I'm at 12,000' and hitting it pre-dawn? Sure they get jettisoned as things warm up, but that's the point of layering, right? Also, I've added the top many times when shadows grow long and the mercury starts to drop. Less so with the bottoms because I normally wear pants, but when the morning/evening is spent fishing rather than putting in miles I'll slip them on under my pants.

Would you layer a down suit to hike in?

Good topic, been thinking about the same recently. I haven't brought a sleep shirt or long johns backpacking in a very long time b/c I think there's just better more functional alternatives. I've recently incorporated some light 6 oz down pants into my setup, and they are way more useful than long johns. I also like that they work well in an additive clothing system unlike long johns. Its great to just throw them over the pants I'm already wearing when I get to camp, rather than having to change my cloths.

Likewise, a cap 4 style fleece acts as a nice mid layer or base during the day, and a sleep layer at night, which ads some versatility. Between my rab aeon LS (3.6 oz) and MEC t2 hoody (6.5 oz) I couldn't ask for much more in terms of weight/function. Its also pretty likely that one or the other will be dry by the time I roll into camp. I've worn just a down jacket to bed a couple times, and on those days I was so cold and wet coming into camp that nylon next to skin or degrading my down was the last of my concerns. I'd agree though, that its probably not the best everyday solution, b/c of the high finnick factor of washing down garments. I will say that even a thin layer of back sweat on my base when going to bed can get quite chilly, so I usually sling my pack over one shoulder a bit before getting to camp to dry things out.

The layer in contact with the skin will get oily and the idea is that this layer is easy to wash. A sleeping bag, down jacket or any puffy are not, it is not a good idea to have either of these against the skin, you'd need to wash them more frequently. Not the end of the world but something to avoid. On a long hike, a puffy can lose significant insulation value and need washing before you get home.

I understand the UL pain in taking a layer for just sleeping but it's a role badly covered by any other of the layers in a system.

Like somebody already said, I do not carry a dedicated base layer for sleeping (unless maybe in the deep winter and when it's really cold.
I usually wear a T-shirt for hiking with a spare long sleeve zip-T for when I desperately need sun protection, need something decent to wear when camping in/near a village and doing something in the village, …
Most of the time, the T-shirt I wear while hiking will be moist when arriving in camp. Over it will go a windlayer (if not wearing that already) and an insulation layer and the shirt will dry out before going to sleep. Without changing to a dedicated set of sleeping cloths I get into my SB.
Sometimes, the T-shirt is that wet (soaked) that I change it for the spare I carry anyway.
Nothing special. Have done that so many times.

snip

This has to be entirely based on the expected conditions doesn't it? In moderate or even well below freezing conditions where moisture is likely to be of the frozen variety that's one thing – but in wet conditions a few degrees either side of freezing a dry sleep layer can make a huge difference and offer you more flexibility in the other gear you carry.

yeah, base layer is to absorb body oils and keep out of down

I only have tight weave nylon base layer, insulation, and WPB jacket. I'll wear base layer and insulation inside sleeping bag.

Sometimes, base layer will get wet hiking, but it dries out quickly. By the time I get into sleeping bag it'll be pretty dry.

I don't go out more than 4 or 5 days at a time. I don't go below 25 F or 20 F.

If it's cold enough to wear insulation over the base layer inside the sleeping bag and I don't feel particularly dirty/sticky, I do that. A damp base layer is not a big deal and it's actually the best way to get it dry.

If it's not cold enough, I'll use the sleeping base. I don't see a problem from the UL perspective with carrying this second base layer. Physically, it can be super light, its only function being keeping the bag clean. Conceptually, it's a different role from the day-use base layer. No redundance.

You can certainly go without but at a price that I wouldn't measure in comfort.

I wore somewhat wet socks inside down sleeping bag. Down lost a lot of loft. That was a mistake. Not a big deal though because it wasn't that cold and after a couple days the down dried.

Next time I won't wear wet socks inside down bag. Damp socks are no problem. They dry out over night. There's less heat to dry things on my feet, than my torso.

Keep wet socks in-between clothing layers at the torso

To add: like I already said, I usually keep wearing my hiking base layer in camp with a windlayer and/or insulation layer over it, and go to sleep that way. If it's too warm, I'll vent with my SB instead of doing away with a clothing layer. That has also the advantage that if it turns back too cold somewhere during the night, I already wear my clothes and just have to fiddle with my SB.

For non alpine hikes base layers are too heavy and just plain not needed. Its one thing that you can easily go without.

I think this type of question depends a lot on the environment and the body of the user.

If time where I am pushing the limit of my endurance and at altitude or with possible nasty cold weather, something like an extra base layer in a ziplock is nice to have.

Also, if your like me, the material next to your skin makes a big difference in how much you sweat. For me, a shirt I love and where often in high exertion is a golite, which I don't know the specs of, but if I sleep in it, I always feel cold. It wicks too much.

However, if I change into a shirt made of wool, or an OR echo, I sleep fine. Not sure how the fabric works to do this, but for me, the difference is significant.

If I am in a dry hot place, or a humid hot place, it doesn't make that much difference. But with cold, or damp and cold, the difference is huge.

So yeah, I would not choose to sleep with my puffy next to skin because of moisture and subjective comfort which I have found to be significantly different.

"For non alpine hikes base layers are too heavy and just plain not needed. Its one thing that you can easily go without."

Did my first Feb alpine this year at -30 F. I was surprized that below treeline up until we hit the "wind blast zone" most people actually ONLY wore their base layers for top. Climbing snow/ice is tough work, when we were moving fast we had steam coming off our bodies at -30. Insulation layers were too warm/wet. Base layers were all that was needed as long as you didn't have any skin "exposed or slow down. Above the wind blast zone (30-70 mph winds) a hard shell was needed (personally) for the wind. And we had to slow down more anyways because we would "pause" and grab during the high wind burst.

point being, base layers seemed pretty widely used by the 100 plus experienced alpine skiers and climbers we saw. I'm sure there probably were some folks that didn't use base layers and we just couldn't tell.

Disclaimer. Please don't misinterpret my post to be ill prepared. I had alot of insulation packed in my backpack just in case.

from Doug :
Me :"As much as I try to have a full wipe down every night before getting into my "dry night clothes", I will still end up soiling them after a few days"

Doug :Just a hint, this does not translate to US English well…..
How unkind of you Doug to make fun of old people.
I haven't been able to sleep for the last few nights thinking about this.
Still, on a positive note, I did not have to change my sheets either.

Having derailed this thread too, I will be standing in the naughty corner for the next few days.
(I can see Bob from here !)

OK, I'm going to give it a try. This thread has motivated me to leave my base layer tops & bottoms behind on my next trip (Sierra, bug season). No dedicated sleep clothes, but I did add a light 100 weight fleece to the mix to use rather than the lightweight base layer for warmth while moving. If I die it's your fault.

worn:
l/s button down collared shirt
pants & undies
socks & shoes
hat, bandanna, and glasses

packed:
fleece top
down jacket
rain jacket
beanie & liner gloves
xtra socks
headnet

Haha! Edited to note that my l/s shirt isn't edible.

"l/s button down collard shirt"

dual use you can eat it!

(can I take on the BG spelling correction mantle?)