Strategy for dealing with cold, freezing rain: WPB socks and midlayer question

I have hiked quite a bit in those conditions and I don't do anything different for my feet other than have dry camp/sleeping socks that I do not wear to hike in and have bread bags (or supermarket produce bags) to put on my feet when I get to camp. My feet run cold, but are generally fine if I am moving.

Get to camp/ set up/ put on dry socks/ then bread bags/ put wet shoes back on.

I also recommend dry dedicated camp/sleeping clothes for those types of conditions. You don't want to sit there and shiver in soaked baselayers once you stop. In the morning you will have to put wet clothes and socks on but at least you know when you stop you have dry/warm clothes.

I sometimes turn my pack liner (trash compactor bag) inside out and put my baselayers in it and put at the foot of my sleeping bag to keep them warm. I will also sometimes put the trash compactor bag of clothes under my pillow which will generally keep them from freezing. Some people will tell you to dry your clothes out in your bag, but I have found in really wet humid conditions that it is too degrading on the loft of your bag, so I don’t try and dry them out just keep them reasonably warm.

I am generally Ok hiking in just a baselayer and windshirt (or rainshell if it is raining) so I don't usually bring a midlayer, though if you decide to, fleece works really well here.

I will sometimes take an extra pair of liner gloves so I can hike in one and keep a dry pair for camp.

It would definitely be worth it to buy a pair of waterproof rain mitts for those conditions. My hands tend to run cold anyways so they are a lifesaver for me. I remember one trip in the Smokies where it was 35* and raining all day and I only had one pair of liner gloves and had left my WP/B mitts at home (stupid light). I didn’t want to soak my only pair of liner gloves so I just went bare handed. By the time I got to camp that night, I could barely move my hands to set up camp. An extra pair of liner gloves and/or a pair of WP/B mitts is well worth the weight in those conditions.

I'm working as an AT ridgerunner in the smokies currently. The standard conditions so far seem to be 35-45 degrees and rain. It's rained like 8 out of 13 days on the trail so far, with several of those days being sustained, all day rain in 35 degree weather in a cloud. I just spent a year in the Mojave and it seriously feels like I'm in hell. My setup is:

Neoshell rain shell anorak – I hike with the pit zip on the right open and the entire left side open all the way from above my armpit to the hip. I stay sort of dry, drier than I would in just my Houdini, but not really completely dry. Mainly just blocks the wind honestly. I'm usually soaked at the end of the day honestly.

Icebreaker 200wt top – keeps me pretty warm even soaked through at 35 degrees with 20mph winds (thanks to the shell).

North Face nylon pants – nothing fancy, I don't bother with rain pants because my legs stay pretty warm even with the nylon soaked and I just heat up and sweat in the rain pants.

I hike with my hands in my pants pockets. It's terrible I know, but I haven't found any other way to keep them warm. I have MLD rain mitts and wool liners. They get soaked anyway, there's just no way to keep them dry when it has rained for three days and the humidity is constantly 100%. I take my hands out for a while, i put them in one at a time. I don't use trekking poles.

At camp I have a 5f degree bag, a dry pair of socks, a Montbell UL down jacket, and dry baselayers. I change into all this immediately and get in my bag pretty quick to warm up. I like having an overrated bag in these temperatures so even if the humidity gets to it there's still tons of loft to keep my warm.

What I've heard actually really works for these conditions is a packa pack cover poncho thing. Good airflow, completely waterproof material, goes over your whole pack and isn't constricted by straps and belts and whatnot. If I was staying here longer I'd be springing for that. It provides actual waterproof material, not WPB, and has enough airflow that you don't accumulate sweat. Definitely seems like the way to go for wet, cold, humid conditions.

+1 on what Bradford wrote, especially about dry clothing once stopped.

I will add a couple of thoughts.

* A poncho like the Packa or my MYOG one keeps my upper body warm, and I find that is vital. That lets warm blood flow to my legs.

* Keeping my legs warm – by keeping moving and optionally using WPB overtrousers if there's lots of wind, keeps my feet warm. That works even when paddling in and out of ice water. (It snowed at the pass, and the snow was melting …)

* I do NOT wear lots of clothing while moving. All that does is get the extra clothing wet.

* Yes, we do carry WP overgloves in alpine regions in mid-summer. The weather up there pays little attention to the calendar.

Cheers

first of all … realize that you will get damp if not wet no matter what you do … period

if that doesnt sound appealing, then the rain is not for you

second … realize that fleece is king … a cheap 200 wt fleece will easily outperform one of those $$$$ UL down sweaters especially when yr damp as hell and its raining

– wear synthetic base layers … you will never be able to dry out merino when its continuously damp and wet … with modern synthetics, they have the fuzz/bumbs on the inside and a denier gradient which helps reduce the next to skin moisture … also you can partially dry out synthetics with body heat and hawt nalgenes to less damp

– use a fleece for on the move on technical ground or if moving slowly … being chilled even on the move is a serious issue, hypothermia is more likely due to the moisture and can lead to bad judgement … a R1 or 100 wt fleece (vests work as well) is something that prevents this from happening

– a fleece or at minimum synthetic insulation jackets … for really sustained rain down doesnt insulate that well whether its from the humidity or from the condensation generated by your body .. think of it this way, if your constantly stuffing yr down jacket in and out of yr dry bag in the rain, sooner or later itll get damp … not to mention that if your in REAL rain your hands and sleeves will be soaked each time you handle it …. now im sure some folks will hike all day and only take their down jackets out under a tent, but many of us mortals will take it out insulation for stops, lunch, or if were moving slowly (read lots of mud), etc … a fleece will take it all and laugh right back at you

– bring and extra pair or two of socks for camp/sleep … trench foot is no joke, there was a rescue here where someone got immobilized for a week due to it

– with WPB jackets … either ventilate alot or wear the minimum you need if yr moving hard … many folks sweat out their rain jacket and then think its leaking … you can easily overheat when moving hard due to lack of breathability … a single warning sign is that if you are sweating alot and get very thirsty (or drinking alot of water), yr wearing too much … in a light drizzle you can even leave most of the front zipper open (the chest strap will hold the jacket together) … sure youll get a bit damp but if you wear synthetics itll dry out somewhat with the body heat from the movement

– a rain hat (or fleece hat) can be used instead of the hood much of the time … i normally carry a 200 wt fleece hat and only use the hood if its raining hard … the hood ads significantly to the warmth and reduce breathability, potentially leading to overheating

– contrary to many here i actually use GTX shoes, they are however one with minimal additional fabric/leather to absorb water … the GTX wont keep your feet dry, nothing will … but they will keep em WARM … you can do the same with a plastic bag (wear a very thin sock under)

the trick with continuously wet weather is to manage the wetness and reduce it through proper techniques … you will never be dry or comfortable …

;)

I have some rocky goretex socks and I really like them. I usually have a dry pair of socks stashed away with the goretex socks that I can pull out when needed. You can also try wearing a pair of thick and tall wool socks, they do take the edge off when wet, but they only work up to a point.

Yeah, you need a mid layer. Something in the 8-10 ounce range. If you want to stop for an extended break you may even need a fluffy fleece in the 12-15 ounce range. That is your get wet insulation for not moving, the down jacket is your do not get wet insulation for after you set up camp.

I've had good luck wearing midweight wool gloves in the rain. They take the edge off. But then they become a soaking wet mess.

"the GTX wont keep your feet dry, nothing will"

Goretex socks with waterproof gaiters, dry socks rotated in regularly, you can have mostly dry feet. The inside of the goretex socks absorbs very little moisture. Probably the only possible way you can reliably keep your feet (mostly) dry.

I use Gortex socks in the conditions described not only for keeping my feet warm and dry but to keep out the abrasive particles that build up in your socks when only wearing mesh trail runners. I guess if you are walking on rocky trails with no mud, you could get away with letting your feet get soaked but add mud or sand to the mix and your socks turn into sand-paper.

I wear WPB pants when wearing the Gortex socks because they stop any water from getting in the tops of the socks. I wear a light pair of wool socks under my Rocky Gortex socks.

I also like to wear my MLD Event mitts over a pair of fleece liner gloves when its cold and raining.

Perfect timing – I'm in the midst of solving similar problems with a planned trip *and* I just renewed my membership so I can post again :)

Looking for similar conditions – Tasmania this winter in July and am expecting temps hovering around freezing and rain something obscene like 24/31 days on average in the month.

I've hiked previously in other seasons in Tasmania along with New Zealand, Iceland and Patagonia, so I'm mostly comfortable with keeping my body happy (fleece, MLD mitts etc), but I'm worried about my feet… Tasmanian trails are the most muddy and rough I've experienced anywhere.

Good merino socks under trail runners has always been enough for me, even in snow, but I've never had the kind of prolonged cold I'm expecting and also never had to deal with multiple very muddy days (I've always had good luck with the rain gods in Tasmania and elsewhere).

I'm planning on adding some of the MLD event snow gaiters to my kit and can't decide if goretex socks are also worth getting – if nothing else they seem hard to size which makes it a challenge as they don't seem to make it to Australia by regular channels.

Are they the solution for constant wet with gritty mud or is a liner sock under regular merino enough?

And either way I'm increasing total socks in my shoes – how much is it recommended I size up? I'm currently using inov8s in a 13, so any increase with that brand would be a full size to 14 but I'm worried that's a lot?

Eric wrote:
'the trick with continuously wet weather is to manage the wetness and reduce it through proper techniques …'
Yup.

Goretex shoes are really good at keeping your feet wet all the time. (That is not praise.)

Cheers

Gear Suited for Wet, Cold Weather Hiking

A Lightweight Guide to Backpacking in Sustained, Cold Rain

Also consider synthetic for puffy(ies) and sleeping bag.

I am thoroughly convinced that the EE Prodigy has saved me from a few miserable, cold nights. In those situations — cool with rain, and very high humidity even when it wasn't raining — a down bag would've been rendered useless in very short order with condensate drizzling down inside the tent.

Fleece jacket is a must have…

"I ordinarily don't mind being wet when things dry up and conditions aren't so cold, but if they don't…what then? Thoughts?"

For those conditions, baselayers under raingear is my go-to "technique", while my regular hiking clothes go in the waterproof pack liner.
Capilene 2, maybe something heavier like grid fleece or Powerdry if temps stay low or you don't run hot like I do.

All day rain means flooding trails, as they often act as drainages.
My midweight merino socks have always remained comfortable when wet, so it's never been a big issue for me. Waterproof shoes are warmer, since you don't have cold water getting pumped in and out of your shoes with every step.
I've also worn 2mm wetsocks over merino socks when wet and below freezing, and as a standalone sock when it was a little warmer. That assumes planning to be out in that kind of weather or wading in cold water ahead of time, since I don't usually go around carrying a pair of wetsocks.

I've never really minded hiking wet, even in the cold, as long as I have enough on to stay warm and something dry to get into at the end of the day. Carrying another 13-15oz to have an extra set of socks and baselayers is a small price to pay when heading out into cold and wet weather. I've got a pair of neoprene slippers with grippy soles that do double duty when they seem worth bringing. If I want to keep my shoes dry, they get worn for crossing creeks and such, but when it's wet and my shoes are soaked anyway, they give me something dry to put on in camp.

I wear Gore-Tex boots (or shoes) with gaiters in rain and near freezing temps and my merino socks don't get wet, just damp. I've experimented with breathable shoes and the socks get a lot more wet, never dry out.

I look at weather reports and try to avoid the rainiest periods but several days of rain is sometimes un-avoidable.

I've accidentally forgot the gaiters and gotten super wet. Shoes are better than boots because there is less boot material covering my feet so they're more breathable.

I use 1.1 ounce breathable nylon gaiters. It's weird that even though the fabric is not at all wasterproof, the merino socks don't get wet. Something about the layers of fabric and the surfaces are vertical. You could use eVent or whatever, but it weighs more and is less breathable. Weight on your feet is like 5 times as bad as weight on your back.

My last trip was 28 F and 20 MPH winds one night. Two things – I decided to go down 1500 feet to more sheltered location, and the next morning I quickly got up and started hiking. I did cook my oatmeal and coffee. An hour later it got warmer and less wind so I finished breakfast.

That morning was the only time I can think of I wore my synthetic vest while hiking. Even then I was cold.

The stated question is well addressed above. Now step up to the next issue –

If you're hiking in multi-day rain, (no sunny mid-day drying time) the challenge arises the following morning, and how you prepare for it.

What do you do when you get to camp? I'll assume you have a dry set of clothes.

How do you deal with wet cold feet if you only have one pair of wet cold shoes?
What do you do with your damp/soaked pants, baselayer, cap/hat, and socks?
How do you handle the "morning shock" of donning your wet/frozen clothes?

"I've accidentally forgot the gaiters and gotten super wet."
I think that's a great point. Gaiters make all the difference, especially when wearing rainpants, 'cause it keeps water from getting in through the top.

I'm all about waterproof shoes and gaiters. My experiments with "breathable" shoes after reading so much bullcrap about them here did give me a new pair of shoes to wear to the gym, though. Wore the things for 7 days last fall, and my feet got wet on 5 or 6 of them instead of just the 2 when I was hiking in heavy rain and the trails were underwater.

+1 on carrying spare base layers and synthetics.

Throw out your SUL summer list and be prepared in this sort of weather. It will kill you.

+1 on fleece. 35f isn't all that cold if it is dry, but adding the wet factor is just miserable, and deadly. If you forgot or lost a key piece of insulation, replace it or bail.

If you aren't using poles, pull your hands into your sleeves. Yeah, don't buy your rain shell so small.

Finding truly waterproof gloves or mitts is a challenge. I tried a couple different models of "waterproof" gloves over the last year and actually shoved my hand into a bucket of water. They leaked through in a couple minutes. Seam taped mountaineering level shell and liner mitts are the only thing I have seen that will keep your hands dry. Be prepared to spend as much a a rain shell. If your gloves are $35-$40, you can bet that the seams arent sealed. You might find them water resistant and fine for something like an afternoon ski run, but they will eventually soak through in all day rain.

"…after reading so much bullcrap about them here…"

Where breathable shoes excel, in my opinion, is in more moderate weather with lots of stream crossing that you can't rock/log hop across. Get to stream, just walk across, don't worry about searching for some slippery rock and then falling into stream. If you get goretex wet, it takes forever to dry them out.

one thing i would like to address is cold, wet and wind

any one is survivable …. any two and yr in deep shiet … all three and yr dead

theres was a bear gryllys test years ago where he got soaked in coolish temps and then had big fans blowing … now alot of folks might not be a big fan of him, but theres little doubt he is person whose in fine shape … he wasnt weaing any waterproofs, just DWR clothes and tried to build a survival shelter …. within short order he was going hypothermic as confirmed by the heat cameras ….

if you experience all 3 you absolutely must take steps to minimize their effects and get the hell out of dodge … a fleece (not a thin one but a 200 wt one) will help tremendously even when moving in strong winds … as will WPB windproof uppers and lowers … gloves are a must as is some kind of fleece hood/hat

the other thing is that youll want to bring a bit "extra" contrary to the BPL philosophy .. youll want a bit extra fuel for that hawt nalgene … youll want a bit of extra dry clothing … for a down bag youll want a bit of an extra rating should it loose loft from the humidity/condensation and the inability to dry it out … youll want extra food as youll likely need the extra calories to combat the increasing heat loss, and its likely youll spend extra time wallowing through the mud, or get stuck an extra day or two at high streams …

also make sure all yr gear especially the rain jacket is on good conditions and test it before hand in the shower … now if one does insist on using down jackets you should probably test the DWR on that too, chances are if you wear it alot in the city its faded away (same with the rain jacket) … fleece will look at you, grin and ask for more abuse !!!

;)

good points eric

"youll want to bring a bit "extra" contrary to the BPL philosophy .."

I don't think that's contrary to BPL philosophy – you don't want to bring things you'll never use or unecesarily heavy gear. Okay to bring some extra food/clothing for emergency. Sometimes manufacturers will make gear overly heavy just to prevent returns from some crazy person that abuses their gear…

and don't test gear in shower, test it walking around in the rain at home – more realistic conditions. Or test a new piece of gear on a trip but have a backup that you know works just in case. After the new piece of gear is verified, you can quit bringing the backup.

"that hawt nalgene" Eric'c got me confused. Is he attracted to Nalgenes? I always thought he used hawt because he didn't know how to spell haute. But now we know he also means hot as in temperature.

I can't stand to hike in my Gore-Tex socks. I use them in camp so I can comfortably wear my wet shoes, and hopefully dry them some with body heat.

"Where breathable shoes excel, in my opinion, is in more moderate weather with lots of stream crossing that you can't rock/log hop across. Get to stream, just walk across, don't worry about searching for some slippery rock and then falling into stream."

Well, I agree, but reading this forum you'd sometimes think it's both dedicated, and limited to, fair weather shoulder season-only Sierras hiking. You could ask about hiking in Southeastern swamps, Eastern or Western mountains, and Southwestern deserts, and see the exact same thing recommended for all of them, with no regard to the differences in conditions.
Maslow's hammer…

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/cold_wet_gear.html#.VQ2Rhrpg5nE

"Well, I agree, but reading this forum you'd sometimes think it's both dedicated, and limited to, fair weather shoulder season-only Sierras hiking."

yeah, a lot of people swear by breathable shoes in all conditions

but, the beauty of this site, is there are lot's of ideas you can test and apply to yourself as best suites you

and some ideas not applicable at all, to me, like wind shirts – I don't get it. I need to have eVent jacket in case it rains, supplex shirt for sun and bugs, there is no case where I need a windshirt that supplex shirt or shirt+eVent jacket won't be adequate.

Ken, I hyper linked that and another article on the 1st page of this thread