Whats your SUL Cook Set-Up Grams/Milliliter %

[David Gardner]

First, I did understand Jon Fong's post to be in a humorous vein. Just thought I'd see if I could make it work. Sorry if this is a thread drift, but it seems to follow naturally from the topic to discuss if a set up actually works.

If there's an engineer or someone fluent with the math of thermodynamics it would be great to have them weigh in on this. IMO rocks, bricks, it makes little difference, neither is much of a heat sink. They conduct heat poorly and therefore don't absorb much. Probably more of a factor would be how much surface area of the pan they are blocking from direct contact with the Esbit flames. So I drew lines to show how much contact there was with the bricks, then cut the contact areas so I could estimate their area. About 1.75 square inches, out of 38.5 square inches of bottom surface area for the 7" diameter pie pan (4.5%). I just don't think it's a significant factor.

Nevertheless, I went and borrowed three rocks from my neighbor's low-water yard and re-did the experiment. Essentially the same results as before. There is a "local" boil about 2-3" in diameter directly above the flame but the water at the edges is much cooler, and at no point does all of the water reach boiling temperature. When I observed the local boil I measured the temperature as 175* at the edges. Then I stirred the water for awhile to get an average temperature and got 188.5*.

Clearly there is a limit at some point to how wide and flat a "pot" can be and still effectively heat all of the water in it. There's probably an equation or something. But I think the pie pan is over the limit.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Decided to see just how far I could cut down my system to still be useable.

I'm still not 100% in love with it but taking 25% of the weight off sure does work for me.
I am always in an area that I can use a few sticks or rocks for blocking the wind.

Went with a modified TiLight stove that incompasses the ability to hold the pot on it .

This stove weighs 4 grams and allows me to forego the 2 stakes that held the pot up (with in the wind barrier) from before.

This got me from 17% down to 12%

I'm thinking for a SUL set up, this 4 gram stove with a 27 gram 2-cup fosters flat bottom pot and an 11 gram lighter = 42 grams.
Not sure about the useable amount but at 16 ounces or 431 ML comes out to 9.7%.

.

I have also modified my go to system that I really like and gotten it down to 90 grams or 15.2%

.

[David Thomas]

>"If there's an engineer or someone fluent with the math of thermodynamics"

DavidG: I very much appreciate you actually testing the pie-tin set up. One good experiment blows any theory out of the water.

Yes, I agree that the large diameter pie tin, while good at extracting heat from the Esbit flame below, also has great surface area above and a large perimeter through which to lose heat. Evaporative heat losses are killer, especially as you approach 200F. Without a decent-sealing lid, over all that area and perimeter, a wimpy little Esbit flame isn't going to get there. Folding a handkerchief into approximately a 9-inch circle and laying it over the aluminum foil would help some of the losses off the top of the foil. Or use two layers of foil to reflect some IR back and provide an air gap against conductive and convective losses.

I also agree that rocks (or even bricks) having poor contact with the pie tin, being low-conductivity, lower-than-water heat capacity and being below the pan won't have a big effect on conducting heat away. A little patch of asbestos pad/tape between the rock and pan would be a test, but I suspect any measurable difference would be due to any height difference and not conductive heat loss.

[jimmer ultralight]

David.

I dont see your Esbit experiments as thread drift.Since Arron now has added the qualifier of "usefullness" to the equation ( which varies from user to user) your Esbit and rock experiments are useful. I sincerely thank you for doing them!

You see lots if folks online mentioning using rock supports with Esbit . Im sure many of them are using much narrower cups and mugs made from heavier materials which retain heat better than a light Aluminum pie pan. Some are also probably happy with water warm enough for a hot drink. Its important to note that while the Pie plate/ rock/ esbit combo did not produce a rolling boil, it did exceed the sterilization temp(175 deg)in every case..

For rehydrating meals ,I prefer a rolling boil most of the time . I wonder what a decent Alumnium foil floor and wind screen would do to.enhance performance?

As it stands,I see reports all the time of Esbit doing no better in some of the very poorly designed factory Esbit stoves and some of the really badly thought out makeshift setups that bushcrafters /woods bums use with zolud tablets..

The rock setup appears to be no worse than those. Which is a pretty poor commentary on many of the Esbit setups out there..:(

Now, show that Pie tin some love and slip a 7 gram Supercat stove with .6oz of Denatured Alcohol under it !….I bet it boils.;)

Again, thanks for the posts..And also to Jon Fong for bringing the whole rock thing up.

[jimmer ultralight]

I just saw this comment after posting the above..

"Jimmer,

You fatigue me. Your negativity sucks the life out of a fun thread."

John Harper,

I tbink if you go back and look at most of my posts on this thread, you'll see I take the topic seriously and have tried to make a positve contribution with very real facts, not flights of fancy. I'm sorry you have trouble dealing with reality.

And your latest " contribution" on this open thread is not exactly positive itself..;)

[jimmer ultralight]

Somebody explain to me why small Bic lighters have a plastic case that you can barely see through. There are larger butane lighters with all sorts of plastic, transparent, translucent, or opaque.

–B.G.–

Hard to fathom that one.. The clear body "Jeweltone" lighters made in Thailand are my faves for just that reason. They are about a half ounce heavier than a MiniBic, but you can see the amount of fuel you have. They are also only 3 for $1 and seem to be as reliable. Anymore, I carry one Jeweltone and a ferro rod as a backup. No Bic.

[Dan Yeruski]

The pot, stainless steel foil lid(more durable than aluminum), stainless steel wire pot supprt, aluminum pot support stabilizer, carbon felt ground protector and stainless steel Esbit tray combined total weight is 27 grams.

Foster pot has 2 cup+ capacity. The ridgeline in the center of the "F" is the 2 cup mark. The pot has an aluminum bottom and top rim.

The stove has integrated parts, nothing loose that can get lost.

[Ian]

How this thread evolved has been interesting and productive for me.

My understanding is SUL is under 5lbs base weight but I'm unsure as to how heavy a cook kit can be and still be considered a "SUL cook kit." Jeremy's kit certainly is.

Like the grease pot, I was aware of people using the blue diamond almond can but I've yet to use one until today. I was in the market for something that was in the 10fl oz total capacity range so I could boil 8fl oz of water and still have a little room to prevent boil over. I was previously considering the Snow Peak ti bowl or their 450ml mug, but after realizing that it met my weight/capacity requirements, and the $3.24 price tag, I knew I had a winner.

Sadly the rock technique didn't work.

Conditions were ideal this morning; 32*F and a slight breeze. Using three rocks which created what should have been a sufficient wind break, I was unable to get 8fl oz of 40*F water to boil using a single Coghlans tablet. The water was hot enough to re-heat a meal an have a cup of tea, but not hot enough to boil water for a few minutes, which is what I require to make Turkish style coffee (aka cowboy coffee). My only option without adding a windscreen, stove, etc would be to add more fuel to my kit.

In other words, play spreadsheet games by removing weight from my base weight to my consumables. Not something I'm willing to do here.

Anyways, I don't care how light the kit is, if I can't make real cowboy coffee, then it's not a viable option for me.

So I added a ti wing stove, ti windscreen, and ti reflective screen for the ground, and I was able to get 8fl oz of 40*F water to boil for a few minutes which was more than sufficient to brew my coffee this morning.

So here's my specs and ratio:

Blue Diamond can with pie tin lid 1.3oz/38grams
Snow Peak hot lips .1oz/4grams
Newish mini bic lighter .4oz/11 grams
Ti wing stove .5oz/13 grams
Large ziplock bag to hold pot in (keeps esbit residue off of gear) and small ziplock bag to store fuel and stove in .2oz/7grams
Edit oops forgot windscreen and ground protection at 14grams.

Total weight 2.4oz/82 grams for a durable kit that I will use.

I'm going to base my calculations on how much water I can boil, not the capacity of the pot filled to the brim since I'll never do that.

82 grams/250ml = .328

Not the lightest but I like it.

[Ian]

…if he can make cowboy coffee with his pie tin/rock kit.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

David,

I ran the test again last night, no problem getting to a boil in less than 8 minutes.

Video of a Pie Pan Pot in action

[jimmer ultralight]

I mean, you are a lot further south than David..:)

How much Esbit was left? It looked like you only used about half of the 14g cube.

[David Gardner]

Good job Jon. Any thoughts on why we get different results? I think my rocks were a little lower than yours? (Now I wish I had measured the height, before I tossed the rocks back in my neighbor's yard.) Also I see you're using a tray, although I didn't notice any drip pattern from my burns that might indicate some of the fuel being wasted.

I did notice that your boil looked like the "local" boil I observed in my experiments. Not to make more work for you, but what happens when you stir the water after observing the boil? Does the average temperature go down?

Or maybe I just have gremlins in my shop…

[jimmer ultralight]

Why does this always happen with stove builders?

In the end ,it always comes down to the size of their stones…:)

Carry on gents..

This thread is now a BPL classic..

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Gents!

1) I measured & sorted the height for the rocks with calipers. A better option would be to uses tent stakes marked at the 2" height.

2) If you noticed the Esbit flames they were almost perfectly vertical. This implies that it was dead calm out. If there is any breeze at all, the efficiency drops quickly.

3) Maybe I should sell rocks.

I started this as a joke, but backed up with some results. Esbit should be able to boil 3 cups of water pretty easily and there are many ways to do this. Have fun.

[Ian]

Well I had an opportunity to prove DK right. Our store only had one brand of pot pie for sale and it is Marie Calenders. They use a paper/plastic type dish instead of aluminum thus confirming that communism is alive and well. After looking at some similarly sized tins on Amazon, I've decided not to pursue it any further as they don't look like a good option from a structural integrity standpoint and would require more babying than I'm willing to give.

I do have some pie tins that I'll try boiling water in after I finish my lunch. Chicken pot pie lunch that is.

.

[Bob Gross]

" 3) Maybe I should sell rocks. "

Start a rental program.

–B.G.–

[David Thomas]

>"I think my rocks were a little lower than yours"

TMI.

[Ian]

"TMI"

Badum Ching!

[David Gardner]

I meant larger, not lower…

[Dan Yeruski]

The pot, stainless steel foil lid(more durable than aluminum), stainless steel wire pot supprt, aluminum pot support stabilizer, carbon felt ground protector and stainless steel Esbit tray combined total weight is 27 grams.

Foster pot has 2 cup+ capacity. The ridgeline in the center of the "F" is the 2 cup mark. The pot has an aluminum bottom and top rim.

The stove has integrated parts, nothing loose that can get lost.

Ok, alright, I'll reduce it tomorrow and repost.

[Ian]

Good stuff Dan. Will that pot survive in a ruck without a caddy? Also, what would the weight be when paired with one of your 10oz pots?

[Dan Yeruski]

Yes, It will survive. My placement of items is selective. I'm fully aware of the sacrifices I make to go SUL and make allowances for that.

The 10 fluid ounce pot and the stove you see in the photo weighs 20 grams. The esbit stove has a carbon felt bottom with a stainless steel disc adhered to it's center. The SS disc has raised edges to retain liquefied esbit as it burns. The stove is one piece. The carbon felt is John Abbela's idea from another thread.

Later today I'll refer to some comments made by Hikeliter, John Abella. I've made specials for him and he seems to have shied away from the 10 fluid ounce, aluminum container. Those containers are known to be purchased locally as seen in this thread and others.

[Ian]

"Those containers are known to be purchased locally as seen in this thread and others."

Just so I fully understand, you're not offering the 10fl oz pot any more?

Edit: I just read your post on the other thread and you mentioned that you still sell the 10oz pot.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Deleted

[Dan Yeruski]

Ian, that was an old thread. Stopped selling them do to lack of interest. Just for you if You want one you can go to this old cyberspace page and order one by using the paypal button and you can also watch the video there that was made in 2011. It's interesting how these old pages float around out there.

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/foster-ridgeline-series.php

2011 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzaBSHqBuQQ#t=221

edit to say: the small can is made of heavier gauge aluminum than the Foster can

[Author]

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