X-Mid Pro coming: in DCF, 2-person tent

[Tim H]

Thanks for replying Dan.  I don’t think an X-Mid 1p single wall in Poly would be a “niche” tent.  In fact, GG’s the One is the only tent in the market that I’m aware of that is a poly tent.  My 2020 version is 19 ozs, and was $240 on sale ($300 reg).  A poly X-mid 1p SW  would surely be in that neighborhood.  You would be competing directly with The One.  Based on your design, I’d choose the X-Mid SW.  I fall into the “want UL, but won’t pay DCF Prices for it” category.  I’m betting that would be a pretty BIG group.  No serious ULer would  carry a 28 oz tent, unless they were willing to compromise somewhere else.  I will surely drool over the X-Mid Pro 1p in 2023, but  it’s gonna be well north of $500…

[Matthew / BPL]

Poly SW sounds like a winner to me too.

[d k]

Me too.  Had the Pro 2 been available in poly, I probably would have opted for that over Cuben.  I’ve been using SW tents for quite some time and prefer them for where I hike.

[john mcalpine]

Dan…..  Glad to hear you’re looking at a X-mid pro 1 person.  That’s the tent I’d jump on.  I already have your X-mid 1p and love it.  Getting that in dyneema would be epic.

[California Packrafting]

“No serious ULer would carry a 28 oz tent, unless they were willing to compromise somewhere else.”

What does this mean? No serious outdoorsman is concerned about  an arbitrary weight target that is unrelated to weather conditions, trip objectives, location, season, and ability to afford expensive gear.

Getting your weight down to an arbitrary thresholds is an EXERCISE that is useful but it’s not particularly relevant beyond that’s

 

[Tim H]

Sorry if I offended you with my choice of words. The UL standard, right or wrong, is 10 pounds.  For me, and apparently a lot of others, 10 pounds or less is a pretty objective weight that corresponds to a good compromise of enough gear to be safe, and a comfortable carry.  My statement merely points out that it’s difficult to get into the UL range with the X-Mid 1p DW.

[California Packrafting]

Please don’t take my statement personally, I just think having a weight standard that is not related to the specifics of the trip is doing more harm than good at this point. Those standards work well for sub alpine summer trips without freezing overnight temps.  A “serious” ul hiker might choose a double wall when camping in rainy conditions, to get some extra warmth from a solid inner, or because they can only afford one tent and need to use what they have in all the conditions they hike in.

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

I just think having a weight standard that is not related to the specifics of the trip is doing more harm than good at this point.
Funny about that.

Cheers

 

[Richard Sullivan]

Dan, here’s a great idea for you build a Plex-killer! Make the X-Mid Pro 1P as as a 1.5 single wall, single vestibule. Push the floor pan out into one of the vestibule areas to create more internal space and volume. Most solo hikers want this extra space hence so many using the ZP Duplex. As a 1.5 you can capture this market share of the Duplex, plus be the leader in the solo space. You’ve saved an entire wall of mesh, and two zippers. And there’s room for a dog!

Edit: I just realized this would require an internal pole placement, not sure if this would overly complicate the setup procedure.

Footnote.. I didn’t like the 15d floor idea, seems inadequate to me, and water retaining/difficult to dry. I love the idea of EPL UltraTarp for this.

[Michael M]

I beg to differ Dan., I think there is an untapped market for a UL tent that can accommodate two adults and either a midsize dog or child in the mAin body of the tent. I for one have been looking for one the last 4yrs. So far the SS2 and BA tiger wall UL3 have come the closest.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

“Make the X-Mid Pro 1P as as a 1.5 single wall, single vestibule. Push the floor pan out into one of the vestibule areas to create more internal space and volume.”

There are some interesting options here that I’ll be mulling over. Completely filling one of the vestibule makes a lot of sense because it adds a ton of space and the weight of the extra floor material is offset by less mesh walls and no second door zipper. However, it does leave a pole standing exposed on top of the floor that people will worry about knocking over. It’s not really a rational worry because having a mesh walls there doesn’t do much to stop you from knocking over the pole and it’s not a problem now, but people will still think it’s weird. Another option is to expand the floor into part of the vestibule but leaving the corner outside so the pole is still outside the mesh wall. But again some issues with that like how do you put the pole in position without adding a zipper? And it adds more mesh walls. Keeping it with two doors/two vestibules does provide a bit of overkill vestibule area and not as much floor area, but there is nothing weird/offputting about it. I’m not sure what the best option is but I’ve been mulling it over and I appreciate the thoughts.

“I didn’t like the 15d floor idea, seems inadequate to me, and water retaining/difficult to dry. I love the idea of EPL UltraTarp for this.”
I don’t think you want an UltraTarp floor. It is basically mylar with a very coarse weave of big fibers (versus DCF that is mylar plus a very fine weave of small fibers). Since the fibers are much larger and more spread out, it would be worse at puncture resistance than DCF. Abrasion and puncture before would be similar to just basic mylar, so I think it’d be substantially less durable than DCF that is substantially less durable than our 15D nylon. The nylon will gain a bit of water weight on wet sites, but typically it’s not much since the site is dry or it’s an absorbing material like grass or dirt where the floor isn’t sitting directly in water. So there is some potential for this, but the upside is a longer lasting and smaller packing floor.

I think there is an untapped market for a UL tent that can accommodate two adults and either a midsize dog or child in the main body of the tent. I for one have been looking for one the last 4yrs. So far the SS2 and BA tiger wall UL3 have come the closest.
You could be right than the 3P market is larger than I’m guessing. My subjective guess is likely no better than others here. But 2P tents in general seem a lot more popular than 3P and then the X-Mid 2P is a very spacious 2P (just as spacious as the StratoSpire2) so it further satisfies some of the people that want to go 3P. A 3P isn’t a top priority right now, but maybe I will do one in a few years.

[Atif Khan]

Dan,

Well done on starting your own company.

One of the first things I look at in a tent is interior floor width. The website says 48 inches for the 2 person. That’s pretty tight. My son and I are normal width six footers and find things start getting a bit too cozy below 54 inches. I thought it was just me, but just about everyone in our group (about two dozen hikers) finds 54 inches to be the comfort cut-off. Not a huge statistical sampling, but indicative.

Any plans to tweak dimensions in future?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

54 inches is very rare for a 2P tent. The SMD Lunar Duo is that large, but any other 2P tent I can think of is smaller. 50″ width seems to be the most common but a lot of 2P tents also being 50″ tapering to 40″, or just 45″ the whole way.  So the X-Mid Pro at 48″ width is pretty normal size for a 2P tent floor and larger than it’s closest competitors like the Zpacks Duplex and TT SS Li.

It’s possible that at some point we widen it to 50″, but that would be a small change. We wouldn’t go to 54″ because that’s huge for a 2P tent and it wouldn’t really make sense for a super light tent to also be that spacious, since the target audience is the weight sensitive crowd who would likely be happy with a decently sized 2P tent.

The other thing to note is that most tents have the sidewalls slope in heavily, so it might be 54″ at the floor but it’s way less than that at shoulder height. Whereas the X-Mid Pro inner sidewalls are almost vertical so it really retains that space higher off the ground to give it a lot more elbow and headroom, so it really is fairly spacious for a 2P tent and certainly more spacious that pretty much all of it’s competitors.

[Atif Khan]

Thank you Dan.

There are pros and cons to each of the following, but they all target the non-freestanding/weight conscious crowd:

UltaMid 2 Innernet: 76  in.

Tarptent Stratospire 2: 52 in.

Tarptent Motrail: 52 in.

Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo Explorer: 54 in.

Six Moon Designs Lunar Duo Outfitter — 54 in.

The above Stratospire is the silnylon’s dimension; they go much smaller in DCF. What would be nice is something like yours or a Stratospire with at least 52 inches, if not 54 inches.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The UltaMid 2 is 76″ wide, but it has huge amounts of inward slope on all 4 walls so it’s not really that spacious. I expect it has less volume than the X-Mid Pro 2 – certainly it has way less shoulder room/headroom.

The MoTrail is 52″ wide, but again has a lot more inward slope and a low roof at the foot end, so it also would have less space than the X-Mid Pro 2.

The SS2 and Lunar Duo are larger, but not that much larger considering they weight 2-3x as much. The  SS2 is about 8% wider/more spacious. Certainly it is a bit larger, but considering both tents have near vertical sidewalls so the space is actually not that different. So those are about the largest 2P tents on the market and yes there are a bit larger, but not really that much.

For the goal of the X-Mid Pro 2 as a super ultralight 2P tent I don’t think it makes sense to also make it much larger than most 2P tents, but maybe if it is popular enough we will make a 3P version at 60″.

[Roger Caffin]

The red winter tunnel tent I posted in 3738742 takes two ‘standard’ air mats side by side with space between the mat and the groundsheet bucket wall on either side for gear. The groundsheet is a whisker under 50 ” wide. The gear on either side keeps our quilts off the silnylon groundsheet walls, away from any condensation.

Not sure why you would want more than 50 “.

Cheers

[Atif Khan]

I really appreciate these detailed and sincere responses from the designer and manufacturer himself.

I, and I suspect others, would seriously be interested in a three person version doing regular double duty as a two person. As it stands right now, for two athletically built six footers, those last 4 to 6 inches, the discrepancy between a 48 in and a 52 to 54 inch, spell the difference between touching shoulders, breathing in each other’s faces (or going foot to face), elbowing, or going completely John Candy-Steve Martin (ref: “Those aren’t pillows…!”)

True, the Ultamid walls slope. But we just wedge gear in the corners and it tautens the walls for plenty of head and shoulder space. The Stratospire 2 does a better job than the Ultamid, but weighs more than yours. So take the weight penalty of an Ultamid or SS2, or find some extra space, much needed on those long winter nights and endless rainy days.

The fastpacking/SUL crowd may be willing to sacrifice some comfort for incremental gains, and the more diminutive may be happy either way, but the diminishing returns for removing a little extra DCF drop pretty quickly below 54 for some, and 50 to 52 for many who are 6 feet or taller.

[Roger Caffin]

Hum – I should add that Sue and I are very happy to sleep ‘together’ in the cold. This may not apply for others.

Cheers

[Andy B]

Couldn’t agree more ATIF. I do think the X-Mid 2 is already better than almost all others just being able to compliment 2 long wide pads (just) but I think a 3 person version would be great, in the non-DCF version. I don’t think it needs to be that much bigger to call it a 3 person but would be a roomy 2 for the space needy twins :D

[Jeff McWilliams]

Further thoughts on sharing tent space and floor width:

I’ve been surprised to see how popular it has become to use 2P tents for one person and to use 3P tents for 2 people.  I’ve seen that happen quite often in my local outdoors club.  Guys AND gals in our club are buying ZPacks Duplex tents for single use, and feel put out if they have to share a tent with another person unless it’s a 3P rated tent.  On one trip several years ago, two guys balked at the idea of sharing a small, lightweight 2P tent.  Ted’s words were something like, “I don’t want a small tent that forces me to sleep ass-cheek to ass-cheek with my [same-sex] tent partner!”  I’ve seen the same trend on social media in response to “Help me recommend a tent ” type posts.  The prevailing opinion out there seems to be that today’s 2P tents (especially ones like the Nemo Hornet and Big Agnes Fly Creek) are 2P in name only, and that your average Joe is buying 2P person tents for solo use and 3P tents for dual person use.

My wife and I enjoy our StratoSpire 2.  It hits a decent compromise between room and weight.  I think that’s really helped by the fact that tents with that design encourage sleeping head-to-foot, which we do 90% of the time, the exceptions being if we couldn’t find a flat spot and we both have to sleep with our heads on the uphill end of the tent.  Throw in one or two people who snore and it’s really nice to put as much distance between you and your tent partner as possible, even when earplugs are utilized.   If I had the budget, the SS2 Lithium and the XMid 2P Pro would be high on my list as checking similar boxes.  The SS2 Lithium has a spec’ed 45″ floor width compared to 52 for the SS2 (Silnylon).  Hmm, I’m not sure how my wife would feel about losing 7″ of floor width.  The Xmid 2P Pro’s 48″ width or even the TarpTent Dbl Rainbow Li at 50″ would probably be more to her linking.

[JCH]

I think several issues are at play here.  First, most UL 2P tents are designed to hold 2 people, and they do exactly that. They are not particularly designed for comfort for 2 people.  I think “comfort” is a key word here, and that the vast majority of those buying tents today are looking for some level of comfort.  Most fastpackers/long distance thru-hikers/adventure racers are selecting UL shelters based mostly (only?) on min weight and whether it will protect them from the elements.  The rest of us are looking for a shelter in which we are comfortable.  My comfort is very much tied to having my own shelter that I can site away from my hiking partners.

As a larger person, I abandoned 1P shelters after living for 4 days/3 nights in near constant rain in the Hoh rainforest.  Trying to unpack and get settled in a Notch in the pouring rain 3 days in a row was enough for me to decide that a 2P was the only size shelter that made sense…for Me!  I need some comfort at the end of a 15 mile day and I suspect most “backpackers” do as well.  I moved from the Notch to a Duplex and have never for a moment regretted it.  I very much look forward to the X-Mid Pro 2P, and think it’s size is perfect for my needs.

Lastly, everyone has a different set of objectives/needs/requirements in a “UL” shelter.  Many on this list have addressed their needs with a DIY shelter.  Purchasing a commercially available shelter is an exercise in identifying and ranking YOUR needs and identifying a shelter that comes closest to that ideal.  I think it very rare that a commercially available shelter will satisfy every item on one’s list, and am shocked at how close the X-Mid Pro 2P comes to satisfying mine.

[Hiker 816]

I want to second the “Make the X-Mid Pro 1P as as a 1.5 single wall, single vestibule” idea.  It would make the perfect thru-hiker tent.  I hate having to store things in the vestibule.  Much easier to just throw everything in the tent (and it keeps animals from chewing on gear, like the mouse that ate chunks out of my water bladder bite valve).  Usually, a thru-hiker has to turn to a 2p tent for that, and carry an unnecessary extra door zipper and unused vestibule.  If you could make a 1.5 person in which that unused vestibule becomes interior space, that would be ideal.

[Kin C]

I’m not sure how to page people but would Dan durston be able to provide scraps of 0.51 in the right color so we can make repair patches? I’d be willing to make extra and send them out for free to a few of the members in this thread as well. I use primer 94 and PC9485 to build my repair tapes usually. Thanks!

[Michael M]

That would be awesome!

[d k]

Agreed – I’d be happy to pay for those!

[Author]

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