Why the Divide is so heavy

[David Chenault]

Little spammy here as this is job related, but this is where I learned to get serious about wielding the knife and scissors so when I go back to my roots I want BPL to know.

Plenty of folks here have bought or looked at our (Seek Outside) Divide in the same breath as the HMG 4400 and ULA Catalyst.  This makes sense, but weight wise it doesn’t really add up, as the real world weight of an X42 (Olive) Divide is probably going to be 3.25-3.5 pounds out of the box.  The Catalyst and 4400 have backpacking guts, very well done backpacking guts, but they’re systems which in my book have inherent load carrying limits.  The Divide doesn’t; if it fits you (big if) and the frame is tall enough it can carry whatever you can lift.  All of which is to say that for people who rarely go above 30 pounds I just don’t think the Divide makes sense.  It’s too much pack.  Some people, especially those with sensitive shoulders and backs, appreciate that.  But the Divide lives and breathes in the 30-50 pound realm, and below that is a bit overgunned.

In any case, I really wanted to know how many grams I could shave without getting totally stupid, so I got out the knife.  Hope that answers a few questions.

[Richie S]

Nice video.

 

[W I S N E R !]

I appreciate the honest assessment Dave.

You pretty much summarized what turns me away from SO’s current packs.  Save for deer hunting, I’d almost have to struggle to create a trip where I needed to carry that much weight, even for winter.  And for the times I have carried that much,  most is in food and water and the weight is quickly shed.  These trips rare enough that a >$300 piece of relatively specialized gear is hard to justify and an old high capacity Kelty or Gregory or the likes will do well enough.  So far.

That said, if I start deer hunting more regularly and more remotely, an SO pack is at the top of my new purchase list.  A Tikka T3x Lite is in the lead at the moment though….

 

[Brad Rogers]

Thanks for the video.   I have a Seek Outside Unaweep 4800 in X21RC that I bought in early 2015 (before the current Divide came out) that I have done much of the same mods (no Talon, two top compression straps gone, top Y strap gone, load shelf gone) that gets its weight down below 3lbs with my 2.4oz Zimmerbuilt hipbelt pockets added.  I also have a HMG Porter 4400 and with two of their water bottle holders and rear stuff pocket (4.2oz) it is 3lbs 1oz so overall in a apples to apples comparison the Seek Outside is about 3oz heavier.

While I don’t ever carry more than 40lbs, I have used it from 23-40lbs and have found it the most comfortable pack I have ever used.  So much of the weight is in the hipbelt (~10oz), harness (~8.5oz), and frame (~7oz) that you couldn’t make this pack much lighter.

Wisner – I didn’t ever think I would need a pack that big or to carry that much load either, but when I started doing trips in Alaska I take two weeks worth of food and a bear canister so the weight easily gets over 30 pounds with food and water.

 

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Interesting, so of the ~50oz total weight it’s about half bag and half frame/hipbelt.

[nunatak]

Next post about…. a SO pack engineered for loads under 30 lbs?

[James holden]

the divide is a pack as said that more or less wants a constant 20 lb+ load, preferably more …

theres other packs that are more manauverable and/or lighter

and as said it needs to fit properly … it has quite a bit of adjustment options, but the main failling fit wise is that it doesnt fit narrower shoulders very well … the gap at the apex of the shoulder straps is ~7″ vs 4-5″ for many commercial packs

one thing thats great is all the volume … you can just pack your stuff loosely … no need to compress stuff much, just throw it in

;)

[Brad Rogers]

My pack (spring of 15) weighs out as:

Frame- 7oz

2″ extensions- 0.6oz

Harness- 8.4oz (I could probably trim the straps some)

Hipbelt (Large – I have a 34″ waist but like a full wrap belt) – 10.4oz

“Fortress” 4800 pack bag in x21rc (with top two compression straps and load shelf removed) – 18.2oz

Total weight 44.6oz (47oz with my added Zimmerbuilt hipbelt pockets)

 

When I bought my pack the first generation Divide was just coming out and I hated the stretchy pockets.  The second generation Divide looks much better with fabric water bottle pockets and lenomesh rear pocket.

[Ken Thompson]

Glad mine fits as if it were custom. Pretty plush pad and straps. Sure I could and have gone lighter. Enough group trips, winter, bear canister, etc. showed me I needed something bigger than my Ohm. At 50 I plan on never needing to replace it.

Carried my gear and the mini keg great.

 

[David Chenault]

My working title for our UL backpacking-specific pack is California Special.  Bag shape (to carry a BV500 sidways in the upper half) is about finalized, as are features (big side pockets, drawstring, single top strap, rear shock cord lacing, nothing else).  We’re waiting on some 3rd gen stay prototypes from a company new to making backpacking stuff.  If those work we should be good to move into final testing within a month or two.  If not things will take longer.  Obviously I’d like it to be under 2 pounds, but real world 35 pound capability and longevity will take priority.

I know plenty of people want a smaller pack, more flexible/mobile suspension, as well as a narrower belt attachment.  Ideally the new suspension will let us build a few packs that do all of these things.

Eric, I hear you on the shoulder harness.  It’s too wide for me too.  Right now our pack customers are heavily, heavily weighted towards big, tall, broad shouldered guys.  We’re working on a few things that will hopefully broaden the fit range without us having to add a bunch of SKUs, and make the packs more accessible to smaller framed folks.  When we have a good one I’ll send it to you.

[David Chenault]

Brad, I weighed six frames and 10 harnesses yesterday.  All of the former were 8 oz, all the later were within .2 of 8.

We’re also prototyping a few mods which will make the belts a bit lighter, and more comfortable at the same time.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Cool stuff. Looking forward to seeing how the “California Special” ends up.

[Brad Rogers]

Dave, I am very interested to see what you come up with for the “California Special”. Is it an internal frame? Pack fabric?  Anything you can share at this time?

It sounds like I want to keep my frame as it is 7oz on the nose.  I wonder if the anodizing process added any weight-I wouldn’t think much

I posted my weights on the SO forum some time ago and Kevin indicated that was heavier than an average harness

 

 

 

 

[James holden]

Thankz david

i think i found a fix though …basically crossing the webbing where they attach to the pack which narrow the apex gap

Its not perfect though as the tilt of the straps is then reduced

the other thing is that i find the water bottle pockets unusable … Perhaps its different with larger folks, but i cant seem to reach then and tighten the cord …

Im also not a fan of the metal hooks … In dense terrain ive had them get caught and unclip… I understand why you guys went with them for durability, but they can unclip

the big positive is that if it fits you 20-30 lbs feel like nothing … Well ur knees will feel it but not ur back

;)

 

 

 

 

[W I S N E R !]

Cool, will be watching for the CA special too.

[Dave B]

I’m happy to hear you seem to be working on the pack I have been hoping for!  I look forward to seeing how the “California Special” develops!

My working title for our UL backpacking-specific pack is California Special.  Bag shape (to carry a BV500 sidways in the upper half) is about finalized, as are features (big side pockets, drawstring, single top strap, rear shock cord lacing, nothing else).  We’re waiting on some 3rd gen stay prototypes from a company new to making backpacking stuff.  If those work we should be good to move into final testing within a month or two.  If not things will take longer.  Obviously I’d like it to be under 2 pounds, but real world 35 pound capability and longevity will take priority.

I know plenty of people want a smaller pack, more flexible/mobile suspension, as well as a narrower belt attachment.  Ideally the new suspension will let us build a few packs that do all of these things.

Eric, I hear you on the shoulder harness.  It’s too wide for me too.  Right now our pack customers are heavily, heavily weighted towards big, tall, broad shouldered guys.  We’re working on a few things that will hopefully broaden the fit range without us having to add a bunch of SKUs, and make the packs more accessible to smaller framed folks.  When we have a good one I’ll send it to you.

[David Chenault]

Brad, not going to be more specific just yet.  Lots of options are on the table depending on how certain variables (like the frame) work out.

Will keep everyone posted.

[Brad Rogers]

Eric- Its interesting that you say that about the water bottle pockets.  I am very picky about water bottle pockets and have found some packs (like MLD) to have pockets I can’t reach, but while the pockets on my Unaweep to be simple, they work fine, though they don’t stay tight if I cinch the shock cord up (I think the shock cord is too strong).  I heard the Divides pockets were an improvement.

[Katherine .]

David C –

glad to hear SO is looking a the harness fit!

I haven’t tried one on yet (Mountain Shop in Portland), but that harness  fit issue is slowing me down.

looking for a load hauler to replace the circa 2000 Dana Glacier I use for trips with kids.

[Brad Rogers]

Is there any purpose of the black reinforcement that you cut out inside the pack?  I have not yet cut that out of my Unaweep.  Of course I am sure that isn’t more than a tenth or two of an ounce.

I hope you share information on the lighter hipbelt when it becomes available.

I will also keep my eye out for updates on your new pack.  I guess this would be a direct competitor to the HMG Porter/Windrider 3400.  I might be in the market for a smaller pack for trips a week or less where I would be carrying 25 pounds tops.

[James holden]

brad …

i find the cord lock on the bottle pockets impossible to do up with the pack on … the angle is very awkward … also the pockets IMO are not deep enough to hold a bottle well without doing them up if you need to scramble at an angle

they are however perfect for carrying things like poles, snow stakes, tripods or foam mats however … which IMO is probably more useful for this kind of load carrying pack

i can pick up a water bottle pocket for the belt or shoulder strap anywayz

;)

[Luke F]

Luke here-the guy running around and distracting Dave in the background while he is trying to film- I’ll be curious to see how the Cali Special affects Divide sales, at this point we are shooting for a 3000ci capacity, so for many of our current customers this is too small (the 4500 divide has superseded the 3900 unaweep in a lot of ways), my hunch is that most of the people that would buy the new pack would be new customers that thought the Divide was too big, but I wonder how many of our current 4500 buyers would opt for a 3000 when/if it becomes an option.

A few of you may remember we dabbled with a 3000ci divide briefly during the Gen 1 phase, and sold single digits, part of the reason was probably (as partially illustrated in Dave’s video) the weight savings where very small compared to the 4200, and many people that had requested it in the end still opted for the higher capacity.

We will probably have a lot of horse trading about features going forward with the smaller pack, most of the customers I talk to that want a lighter divide don’t seem to want to give up any features, they just want a full pound to magically melt away, for people like Brad that can live with a pretty slick pack it will likely be an easy conversation.

 

Brad; we have changed the wall diameter and outside diameter a few times over the years, it sounds like you got the lightest iteration. The newest one seems to be our favorite compromise of light, rigid and (slightly) user adjustable. As for the reinforcement it does several things, mostly it provides more anchoring for the frame pockets, but also for the interior hang loops and it used to house the carbon rod that spread the top of the pack as well. I have tried several prototypes with smaller reinforcements, but the tiny weight savings was more then offset by the increase in sew time.

[Brad Rogers]

My frame is the one of the first smaller diameter (Divide) frames (I think).

I imagine that there is a lot more demand for a 3000ci pack than a 4500ci pack, though the HMG Porter 4400 seems to do well and it’s a larger pack (and I assume one of the major competitors to the Divide).  The Unaweep platform carries 30+ pounds or more so much better than the HMG, the closer to 25 you get the less of an advantage it has

 

[Richie S]

One thing – make a long torso version please.

 

[Brad Rogers]

On the Unaweep I can get the Gatorade bottles in and out on the move no problems whatsoever and I have problems with water bottle pockets in some brands of packs.  I can’t get the shock cord to stay tight but I can reach it, it just slips in the cord lock.   I have had a empty bottle (no weight) fall out one time on talus but I would be afraid that if the pockets were taller I would have problems getting bottles in and out.

Of course all of this is on the Unaweep and not the Divide which has a tapered shape instead of the straight Unaweep.  The water bottle pockets are slightly different as well.

 

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