What is the purpose of the thin down jackets?

Considering this is BP<b>Light</b>, the lightness of down makes it a huge Pro in the comparison with fleece.  We all know down is the best insulator, unless moisture is a big issue, down is THE insulator of choice. The only question is how much down do you need?  Some need 1.5 oz, others need 3, 5 etc. The fact that most of us need around 3 ounces to be warm doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use down if you are comfortable in 1.5 ounces.

“down sweaters make alot of sense when the conditions are MILD and DRY”

They also make a lot of sense when the conditions are cold and wet. You hike all day in the rain and when you set up camp, you take off all of your damp hiking clothes and change into a down sweater which is never exposed to precipitation or used during exertion, and takes up minimal space in your pack relative to it’s warmth.

actually if yr hiking all day in constant rain you will be quite wet, possibly soaked

unless youre changing all yr layers including the base to dry ones … the moisture will migrate to the down … remember that moisture always migrates away from heat …

not to mention that if you stop for lunch or for other midday activities … you wont be able to change and will have to put the down over yr wet clothes under yr rain jacket … or you can stay cold

when its always 100% humidity and the down has absorbed some of the moisture … a down sweater is no warmer and likely less warm than a good 200 wt fleece IME … not to mention that if theres no sun it can be quite hard to dry out that down

some of this can be minimized by using both a synth and down layer … but in reality fleece is still king for constant cold and wet

trust me when its near freezing rain all the time with no let up … the extra 2-3 oz you save on down is the LEAST of your worries …. your pack alone will hold that much extra weight in water when soaked

;)

Being somewhat serious…when does outdoor clothing become just functional and practical and not for “hipsters”?

There need not be exclusivity between the two; I find multi-use clothing to be quite convenient.  The time saved from having to switch from, e.g., lounge suit to day dress to sportswear to evening dress is not insignificant!  That I can on occasion wear one set of clothes from the office to club to the trail and not seem out-of-place at any stop is rather amazing.

Possibly highly-specific items of clothing might be safe from hipster appropriation, but I would not be particularly surprised if a trend for 8,000 meter down suits were to appear in some of the more fashionable New York boroughs.  A clothing item appealing to hipsters seems simply a happy (unhappy?) coincidence.  Waxed cotton and wool flannel can have a place in the outdoors just as easily as in the bars, so this isn’t exclusive to modern fabrics.

I think it’s mainly about the wearer and the conditions; clothing may work for one person’s expected activities but not for those of another.

Perhaps I should have mentioned glamping instead of car camping; that’s more what I had pictured: an absence of strong aerobic activity.

-J

Down is great in cold and dry conditions. Wet implies above freezing temps. 32f~50f and wet is a stinker as the humidity will be 80% or more. Down sucks up the cools humid air as well as your perspiration. It’s okay for an overnight, but several days of that stuff means soggy insulation. That can mean no direct sun, so no chance to dry it out. Fleece shrugs conditions like that off.

Lightest weight is only an advantage when it works, which is where the “stupid light” factor kicks in.

I like mine, a Montbell UL. I like the thin part because I often combine it with a Thermawrap vest instead of carrying a puffier puffy, for a small weight penalty. When I head out cross country skiing this gives me flexibility as I warm up, first both, then the jacket, then the vest, then neither. On a backpack the vest also gives me one more synthetic layer I can throw under my shell if it is raining and chilly. I don’t always carry both, it depends on the time of year and conditions I am expecting. The jacket is a camp layer, not for moving in and if I am expecting a lot of rain I will leave it in favor of fleece.

As for hipsters and popularity, that is not my problem. I wear mine around a lot, like the dog walk I just got in from, because that is what I grab first but I am just as likely to run up to REI in my beat up and grungy Carhartt.

I have tried many thin dpwn jackets and never found them warm enough, that is until I came across the Montbell Mirage.

They are warmer, lighter, and more compresable than a fleece jacket.   They are used for static use only and not for hiking (fleece is king is you need insulation on the move)

The shell on the jacket is mostly constant between down jackets just like on sleeping bags.  A down jacket with 4oz of down is probably only 2.5oz heavier than one with 2oz of down.

Its not not quite an apples to apples comparison but the Montbell ex light anorak is 6.2oz with 2.2oz of fill so 35% of the garments weight is down.  Now that is fantastic for such a light jacket but Mont Bells Mirage is 12.8oz with 5.3oz being down. That is 41% of the garment weight.

I have a down jacket with 2oz of down and one with 5oz of down and if the conditions are ~30* or above I bring the former.  Why? Well while a warmer jacket isn’t a bad thing, the smaller jacket is lighter and less bulky in a pack and it fits under my rain shell better

The purpose of the thin down jackets is to help the user stay warm when used within its appropriate temperature range (usually around the low-mid 30’s) , and to do so at the lowest weight possible. Like anything else, there are trade offs, but right now for where I hike, it’s my first choice. i bought my Montbell UL down jacket almost 4 years ago in preparation for a JMT hike,  and have been using it regularly in the SoCal mountain ranges and the Sierras since.  I use it on every overnighter and multi-day hike, although recently I have been bringing the fleece for day hikes to save wear. I’ve used it with layering in temps down to the mid 20’s (In my experiences, I’ve found it comfortable for me in camp down to about 35 degrees or so without additional layering, and below freezing with base layering). Temp wise, I find it a tad warmer while sitting still than my 200 wt. fleece jacket, although not a huge difference.  I don’t hike in it, although I have left it on numerous times during the the first 1/2 mile or so after departing camp on cold mornings. I’ve not lost a feather from it to my knowledge, although my cheap Hawk and Co. down vest sheds feathers every time I pull it out. It’s not anything that I would call a fashion statement and I don’t wear it “around town” at all, mainly because I don’t feel it to really look very fashionable at all.  Regarding it being worthless when wet (the insulation) this is generally true.  But it does have good DWR and short periods of drizzle do not get through, giving you plenty of time to put the rain jacket on. But while you may maintain “some” insulating properties with synthetics, all jackets suck when wet and regardless of what jacket I bring, I treat my insulation like I do my sleeping bag in that I consider it imperative to keep it dry. It’s not difficult to do (especially with modern shell materials and DWR) and I have never had a truly wet jacket in more than 35 years of hiking which includes many thunderstorms, drizzly mornings,  and stream crossings.

All the pros and cons have been listed by others already, but the main reason I choose to use it is the warmth to weight/size ratio (at 8.1 oz in the large size, it’s 2.5 times lighter than my 200 wt. fleece), and it packs tiny compared to the fleece. I like the fleece for the durability and low cost, especially being that most UL down jackets are way overpriced now IMO.  I paid $135 new (on sale) for my down jacket, and I’d do it again in a heartbeat if I found one of similar quality at that price, but I can’t say that I’d pay the $350+ that I’m seeing some brands going for.  Caring for fleece on the trail entails little more than just making sure to keep it dry for when I need it and making sure not to lose it.  Fleece will do the job just fine, but at a weight and size/packability penalty.

I consider the UL down jacket to be one of the best and most functional backpacking purchases I’ve ever made, and plan to buy another when this one eventually wears out, IF I can find a quality jacket at a reasonable price (that will mean different things to different people).

“UL down jacket” is redundant, IMHO. My avatar shows me wearing an Eddie Bauer “1st Ascent Down Sweater”. It’s OK around 25 to 30 F. with NO wind or lower/windy under my eVent parka.

Great for alpine skiing in that layered combo, or lounging around camp.

Just read through this whole thread – wow – it’s amazing that people think the clothing choices that work in their particular climate/weather pattern must work in all environments….

In MY opinion, FOR ME, the thin puffy (I’ve used the MontBell ex-light and now the Backcountry Hadron) is literally perfect for summer in the Sierra, summer in the Rockies, and all those times it may get down to about 30-40 at night.  No, I don’t hike in it – that’s what my hiking shirt and wind shirt and maybe my cap4 hoody is for (only have had to do that once – and overheated pretty fast).  But once the sun goes down in the high desert, or at altitude, the air gets awfully chilly.

We were quite wet on our CT thru this summer, and it felt SO good to crawl into my Duomid, get out of my wet stuff and put on that toasty cap 4 and the Hadron.  All nice and dry, and now warm.  And on dry days, as soon as the sun went down it would get awfully chilly at altitude, but my WM Flight would have been overkill in that situation…fleece might have been just fine, but I’m pretty sure I’m not going to get something as warm as my cap4+hadron combo for that size/weight.

When it’s going to be any colder than that (say, my Big Bend trip in January), then out comes the Flight and the thicker insulation overall.

By the way – I would never, ever consider my Hadron to be a “hipster fashion” item.  That thing is terribly ugly….

Jennifer Mitol wrote:

 wow – it’s amazing that people think the clothing choices that work in their particular climate/weather pattern must work in all environments….

Yep.  The gear snobbery reached new heights in this discussion.

HYOH

I think those who don’t “get” the thinner puffies either run cold or don’t understand the broad-reaching need for layering.

My thin Montbell garments can take me from “barely needing another layer” down to lower than any temps I’ve camped in when used as part of a system.  In fact, this year I added an XL UL down inner parka to layer over my L size down garments and for around a pound I am so comfy and happy on COLD trips!

“gear snobbery” … thats hilarious !!!

let me remind you folks that the OP asked specifically about why folks used these jackets as he didnt find a use for em and his second post he stated he already had a fleece and it served the same purpose

when folks on BPL list the limitations of these down sweaters its now “gear snobbery” !!!

one thing which im sure BPLers already know but just as a reminder … if youre always wearing your down sweater you should be washing it regularly … once high fill down gets dirty from the sweat and oils it goes “flat” and no longer provides the insulation it once had

unfortunately though nothing last forever … eventually with enough washings both the down and DWR will degrade

CAN I WASH A PRODUCT MORE THAN ONCE?  

Yes you can, although unfortunately nothing lasts for ever. The more you wash a garment the more it will affect the performance so wash it when you need to, don’t wash it every time you where it.
http://community.berghaus.com/knowledge-advice/how-to-clean-a-down-jacket/

if one does have a down sweater that one wants to have the “maximum weight savings for the warmth” and tip top shape… then you basically cant wear it for every day use or at the very least it needs to be kept clean just before a trip

as an example i bought my favorite climbing partner a dead bird poofay about 2 months ago … and since she wears it every day all the time now, the DWR has worn off the high abrasion areas (sleeves, hem, back) ….

not to mention that some of these UL 7D shells on these poofays may not be suitable for everyday wear if you dont want pinholes and rips … this is true whether its down or synth

outdoogearlabs on the dead bird cerium SL

Best Applications

While not well suited for the mountains the Cerium SL is not without its place in the world. It would be best used as a commuter jacket, or for days around town in colder weather. Wear this jacket for it’s form rather than its function and you’ll be eminently happy with it

Value
Depending on how you use it the Cerium SL is either a great or not so great investment. If you are looking for a jacket to wear around town that can be stuffed away in a computer bag and brought out when it gets chilly then this jacket is great. If you are a climber you might look elsewhere before settling on the Cerium SL.

Conclusion
The cerium SL gets high marks for style. Good looks go a long way but they aren’t everything and they definitely don’t keep you warm, dry or comfortable.

<span class=”Apple-style-span” style=”font-style: normal;”>http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Down-Jacket-Reviews/Arcteryx-Cerium-SL</span&gt;

now that said im a FAN of down sweaters in the PROPER conditions …

– where its mostly DRY and MILD as a standalone
– in conjunction with another poofay, often synth as a BOOSTER layer
– for fancy hipstah functions where looking “outdoorsy” with the proper logo is the prime consideration

im wearing by EB 850 fill down vest which has probably seen 1000+ days of constant wear (i wear it indoors and when i sleep) over the last few years as i type this … its gone flat many times, been washed a dozen times, has pin holes and has been seam gripped … DWR? hahaha

one thing about good fleece is that it really is suitable for “any conditions” …. if you can deal with the weight … and itll keep on ticking and take a licking

and while we know that no one on BPL makes mistakes … fleece can save yr azz should you suddenly forget yr a BPL member and screw up with your moisture management

Yeah, but I have a very large, shedding yellow dog.

Dogs and fleece are, um, incompatible.

Unless you like tons of EXTRA insulation on top of the regular fleece.  And inside of it.  And around the sleeves.  And the hem.  And the collar.

Now, a nice 7d or 10d nylon???  Chuckles can rub all that hair all over me and I can still go out in public that day – let alone 2-3 weeks later…

well jen …

my suggestion is to buy OR if u have tastay doggayz … ORs warranty is so good that theyll replace dog eaten jackets ;)

<span class=”Apple-style-span”>Brand new OR down jacket arrived two days ago, and I just came home to feathers everywhere. 

The good news is that Outdoor Research said they would still cover it under their infinite guarantee.
</span>

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2232898

The thing is I actually use my gear in everyday life also.  The fleece I wear on the trail is the same fleece that I will be wearing waiting for the bus.  I really can’t do that with a thin down jacket because it can’t take the abuse.  That and I am comfortable wearing the R2 around below 50F just walking so no worries there on getting too hot or too much sweat because the things breathes so well.  Since if I am bringing it I will probably be wearing it I just wear it even without a baselayer underneath and don’t count it in the weight of my pack.  I wear it with a OR Echo T underneath to work and then just swap it out for a flannel or really thin fleece at work.  I am looking for a hooded down jacket that can take some abuse and get me from 0F to 32F combined with the R2 but I have not found it yet  Still using an old 600 type LL Bean down jacket from 7 years ago that weighs 34oz with a hood but can be used every day.  The gear I use for camping is the same gear I use in real life.

I have the Arc’teryx Atom LT hoody jacket I won and I am looking at it and going, what I am I going to do with this?

The thing is I actually use my gear in everyday life also. 

Personally, i don’t like wearing my outdoor gear everyday. My outdoor gear gets dirty, thrashed and patched. My GoLite Bitteroot has a piece of Kenyon tape on the sleeve (still not sure how that tear happened, but it is thin material), my 100 wt fleece is rather sun faded the nylon pants have ground in dirt stains, my beater down jacket is well,  beat up and my thin puffy is on its way, too. You get the idea….

Plus Mrs Mags would disown me if I wore my outdoor clothes everyday. ;)

Yeah..this EMS puffy is not going to work for a date night…

Perhaps it is a family legacy in keeping work clothes separate from leisure and “nice” clothes. The work clothes were thrashed. Let’s look nice when we are out and not working…  In my case, my leisure clothes happened to get thrashed (and guess I could call it part time work, too) and my work clothes and “nice” clothes happened to blur together and don’t get thrashed. :)

The outdoor clothing is just gear for me…

And, personally, I readily admit to not wanting to always look like I am always hitting the trail. Generic white guy  with a bit of a light tan in blue jeans and a sweater is good enough for me.

TL;DR : I’d look like a bum if I wrote my outdoor clothing all the time at worst…looking like I just came off a trail/about to hit one at best. Don’t need that look…