What is the purpose of the thin down jackets?

Depends how thin you’re talking about, but generally for 3-season warmth in camp, and then extra layer if needed for sleeping. I have a hoodless down “shirt” or down “sweater” that weighs 7.4oz, used with a baselayer and windshirt it keeps me comfy to about 40F. Do you tend to run cold in general?

Maybe.  Okay, I already have an R2 fleece for that purpose.  I think I should be looking at parkas instead then for below freezing.

Thin down jackets and thin fiberfill jackets seem like a missed opportunity to me.  The fixed weight of the garment (i.e. inner and outer shell, zipper, etc.) are there already.  Why not stick in enough insulation to make it worthwhile.

I have one such jacket, for example, that has so little insulation that it is no warmer than one made of thin fleece.

I don’t know about “thin” jackets, but I have the Montbell Ex Light in XXL and it weighs 7.8 ounces and keeps me warm down into the 20’s with just a baselayer.  I add a down vest if it’s going to be colder than that and I’ve been comfortable into the teens.  Since the Ex Light weighs so little I typically don’t carry a fleece and haven’t ever looked for a lighter insulation layer.  I will admit that I run “warm” and rarely get cold.

I sleep in a hammock and lay the Ex Light over me while I’m sleeping if it’s really cold out to add another layer of down on top of me.

+1 on the Montbell Ex Light, and I run cold! I use it in camp, to augment my quilt as necessary, a pillow, etc. I used it once on a day hike with windchills in the teens  with a 100 weight fleece and Cap 2 underneath and it was too warm. So for my main purposes it is the right tool.

It’s all about layer-ability for me. Base layer>Fleece (I wear this while moving)>Puffy>Wind/rain shell. Good to the low 30s. Now, if I were to begin a hike, midday, and the temps were already in the 30s, I’d probably think differently. But, if it’s that cold, I’m probably not going. I grew up in Chicago, but have quickly grown spoiled with the Nor Cal winters. :)

For temps above 30°F, I currently use a synthetic Montbell Thermawrap (8,8 oz.). Synthetic because rain or sleet can fall. It has the advantage of offering much more windprotection than fleece and, for me, is still light enough and warm enough.

Beneath 30°F, I use currently a WM Flight (12,1 oz.) as, if snow falls, it’s easy to shrug off before the puffy becomes wet.

And oh, these are my camp insulations as I need very little or even no insulation while walking.

I don’t quite get them either but they seem to be popular.  They look good in a spreadsheet I guess.   My son just purchased a Hadron jacket with just 2oz of 850 fill and I don’t understand why they wouldn’t put in at least 3oz – the cost would be negligible and add less than 10% to the weight.  For the warmth and weight I prefer the weather resistance of a light/ med fleece to a jacket with 2 to 2.5 oz of down.  For a puffy jacket I like 4+ oz of 800 fill or higher, add a hood and I like 4.5+  oz but others really seem to like the feather weight jackets.

Personally I am fine in my OR Echo ls zip-neck and an R2 down to freezing as long as there is not much wind or rain and if there is I bring out the Westcomb Crest hoody and that can drop me down to about 20 or so.  The big puffy jacket is for when I stop of when it is really cold out.  The fact the Eddie Bauer says the Downlight is good to -20F in moderate activity is a lie.  What is their moderate activity,  jogging in a foot of snow?

lightweight and compressible,   Qualities more relevant in the hayday of BPL, and the pursuit of lighter, smaller packs.

Comparing the R2 to something like a Stoic Hadron shows the pretty obvious appeal.  The Hadron is warmer and is literally half the weight.  That’s significant.  There may be other reasons you’d prefer a fleece.

Above freezing, I use a Uniqlo UltraLight Down jacket that comes in at 9oz for a small (fits like a medium). A fleece of that same weight would only take me down to about 50º comfortably.

Around the border of that temperature, I’ll add a 100-weight fleece vest that weighs around 6 oz.

In very cold temps, I have an old REI down jacket from the 70s. It’s super warm and the outer fabric is Gore-Tex, so I don’t need a shell over it for snowy conditions. It’s pretty heavy at 27 oz, but it works great and it was a free hand-me-down.

Ah, so they are more just a substitute for fleece or synthetic above freezing.  I don’t know if I would wear one while moving because they don’t breath but I could see it when someone stops above freezing.

UL down jackets…so much depends on your own tolerance to cold. Personally I need more than just a hint of insulation where others seem to do very well with them. I just boils down to what performs for you and how you keep the weight at a minimum.

I keep in mind my sleep system, daylight hours and how long temps will be tolerable in my worn clothing. If days are long and the temps are good till bed time I would rather carry extra insulation in my sleep system where as Daryl states above it will not come at the cost of extra zips and shell layers. On the other hand if the daytime temps are colder and I need more layers to wear when traveling I can adjust what is needed in my sleep system.

I am finding the more options I have the better I can tailor my choices for a particular trip and shave weight on the overall system.

jimmyb

Brett, you definitely don’t want to rely on a light down jacket for warmth while moving.  It’s too hot and not breathable enough.  But most of us need very little insulation while moving.  A Cap4 is about the warmest I am going to wear on the move unless its REALLY cold.  The light down jacket shines in camp.  According to Nisely’s charts, a light down puffy (the ex light) is more than 4 times warmer per weight than an R2.  SO for camp warmth (which is the only place you typically need that kind of warmth), a light down jacket is a great piece.  See http://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/101420/

Skurka also has a good article on his site about the difference in a “go suit” vs. camp warmth.  There can be some overlap between the 2, but generally, I think its helpful to think of them seperately.

I bought a Mont Bell UL jacket in 2008 and it has been one of the best pieces of backpacking gear I have ever purchased.  It goes on almost every trip I do.  It weighs 7oz and incredibly warm for it’s weight.  It’s my go to jacket until about 30* below that I start thinking about bringing my newer and much less frequently used Mont-bell Mirage, but I have used the UL down inner to near 20*f.

For Alaska I used a BPL Cocoon hoody because of the humidity down to 19*f with a 100wt fleece under it.  If I had to do it again I would probably bring the UL Down Inner.

Mine me has been used a ton and really needs a wash, but I love that jacket.  I keep getting tempted by the new EX light anorak though.

My my wife finds her UL down inner not warm enough below 45* or so but she also likes a 0* bag at 30*.    The UL down has become her favorite “around town” jacket and she has a big Rab jacket for backpacking.

I agree I would never wear a down jacket while active.  (Unless I was doing serious mountaineering)

Ah, so they are more just a substitute for fleece or synthetic above freezing.

I don’t see it that way. Potentially one could swap a fleece for a down jacket for in-camp warmth, but that’s a much heavier solution and this is BPL after all.

Fleece is good for warmth on the move, and it has to be pretty chilly before I’ll need that. Down is for at rest in camp as the evening cools off. In summer I won’t even bring a fleece but still may need the down jacket for evenings. If it’s cold enough to need the fleece during the day then in the evening I can layer that with the down to stay warm. So not either/or, it’s down only or down+fleece depending on temps.

I did try a Cap 4 a few years ago when it was all the rage and I know that thing provides almost no insulation and I would not be able to get my body temp up that high to use it around here where it is flat at close to freezing.  You just don’t have to exert yourself that much around here.  I know I simulated something similar with a ss and ls OR Echo combo and every small puff of wind would chill me close to freezing.  I can try it again along with the Westcomb Crest hoody this weekend with the gf because she wants to go out hiking.

I used to have an old Montbell UL Down jacket also but it kept loosing down all the time so I got rid of it.

I find that interesting that it lost down as I don’t think my 2008 has ever lost a feather and it gets used abused stuffed, used as a pillow etc.

All of my quilts leak a little down, maybe a feather/cluster every night or two.  I have a Rab Microlight that I now use around town that leaks quite a bit.   I have a 2009 Alpine Light that has maybe leaked a feather or two but not much.

Cap 4 isn’t very warm without a shell of some kind.  The extreme breath ability makes it a great active layer IMO.  You are right though the wind, it sucks all the warmth from Cap 4 quickly.

You must remember that many of these companies rely heavily on sales to the general public for their life. The UL customer base such as BPL is far too small for it to be significant, relative to the general public.

So, many of the products you find in their catalog are really fashion items, not what we would call really functional items. The problem for us is to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I think I would put UL down gear into the fashion class.

Cheers

Thin down jackets don’t provide a lot of warmth. The warmth they do provide is at the lowest weight possible. So if you only need that amount of warmth for your trip, carrying the thin down jacket keeps you at the lowest weight possible. It’s a very expensive niche item for ultralight backpackers.

Yes, thin down jackets are popular in the fashion market right. Some down jackets are made intentionally less puffy for style without much consideration to warmth per weight. Look at the montbell ultralight down jackets, they are thing but weight like 6 ounces in mens medium.

I would focus on having many layers that you can go on and off to regulate your temperature. Fleece combined with a windshirt is the best for active use. Keep the down jacket stowed away in your pack for camp/sleep use.

I actually had over 10 feathers work their way out of the jacket in less than a year.

There is something like this that I can try out unless someone has an Alpine Light XXL knock-off for cheap, http://www.backcountry.com/backcountry-backcountry-hadron-down-jacket-mens?skid=BCC0327-CHA-S&ti=U2VhcmNoIFJlc3VsdHM6aGFkcm9uOjE6MTpoYWRyb24=

I weighed a capilene 3 zipneck. Then I weighed a montbell ul down inner jacket. That was eough to convince me. Which do you think is warmer?