UL Propane stove with 300 BAR refillable 0.6L composite fuel bottle?

[DAN-Y]

Ultracool and BOSS Torch canisters are fuel for cold weather, temps down to -30 degrees usually found in the states bordering Canada. Some of the border states may have the Ultracool propane canisters, if not, they will have in the future once the Candian border opens after the pandemic.

As we have learned from another thread, propane blends vary by location……location, location! Canada needs that high content propane.  Rex doesn’t need the extreme cold blend.

This guy and his friends need it :-)

[DAN-Y]

With the Ultra Cool, if you need 111 to 226 grams of fuel, you could save 25 grams, or 0.9 ounces, for about the same burn time, and easily run a stove below 20 F (-7 C) to about -30 F (-34 C). And possibly refill cheaply, though the exact number of refills is determined by a loud bang often followed by an explosion and fire :-(

But MSR and similar canisters are much easier to purchase, especially in the U.S., aren’t as tippy for canister-top stoves, are available in different sizes to match your trip length, and put the stove lower to the ground for slightly better natural wind resistance. And you can run the stove well below 20 F with some tricks, or using a slightly heavier but more stable invertible remote canister stove that also takes a windscreen safely. And they are just as refillable as the Ultra Cool canisters :-) though not as cheaply.

Tradeoffs. I’ll stick with regular canisters.

— Rex

Yes, and the MSR canisters number of refills is determined by a loud bang often followed by an explosion and fire just like Rex said. ;)

[DAN-Y]

Yes, and the MSR canisters number of refills is determined by a loud bang often followed by an explosion and fire just like Rex said. ;)

I was just kidding.

If anything, the threads will get worn out causing the canister to be not usable. The canisters are made to exceed DOT  requirements 5x according to what has been posted.

[James Marco]

Rex, I don’t know… 3/4oz is still 3/4oz.  IFF they can be made available here in the USofA for the same or lesser cost than a standard canister, they would be worth it. Propane has a slightly higher heat of combustion so it about evens out for fuels.

 

[Jerry Adams]

I’ve been refilling the same canister with cheap butane for several years, no problem.  The bottom rim is getting rusty.  There’s a dent on the side.

I have several spares, so I arbitrarily switched to a new canister and wrote the date on it so I’ll be able to see how much I’ve used it

[DAN-Y]

I’ve been refilling the same canister with cheap butane for several years, no problem.  The bottom rim is getting rusty.  There’s a dent on the side.

I have several spares, so I arbitrarily switched to a new canister and wrote the date on it so I’ll be able to see how much I’ve used it

Thank you for that Jerry, a good point for all to remember.

[Jerry Adams]

I’m going to guess I started that canister in 2016, so I’ve used it for 4 years.  That would be 50 trips.  300 days.  Saved having to buy 40 canisters.

I am an accelerated life tester

canisters are $6 ?

would have cost $240

the cheap butane costs $50, so I saved $190

unfortunately, I used just as many cheap butane cans as I would have butane canisters, so I wasn’t any greener.  I did recycle and steel is very recyclable

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

I have been following this thread for a while and the new canister seems like an interesting idea.  Maybe someone can lay out a clear and precise pros and cons list comparing propane to isobutane.  As a quick overview, it seems like Propane is best in super cold condition and is cheap and Isobutane is best with respect to replacement on an extended trip (re-supply availability).   It would be nice to see a trip scenario that emphasizes to best of each option and maybe a discussion as to when NOT to use the product.  My 2 cents.

[Jerry Adams]

isobutane like MSR Isopro is good down to 21 F with upright stove.

propane is good down to -34 F

at normal temperatures, like 72 F or 110 F, propane has much higher pressure than butane.  It’s a consequence of it’s lower boiling temperature which is what makes it better a cold temps.

Therefore, you need one of those heavy steel bottles – 16 ounce bottle weighs 13.9 ounces.  They don’t make 4 or 8 ounce propane bottles (ignoring the canisters mentioned previously)

But, you can put propane into a regular butane canister as long as you keep it below 72 F or so (I’m not sure about exactly what temp).  I remember David said he’s done that, maybe in 2016?  8 ounce butane canister weighs 5 ounces.  4 ounce canister weighs 3 ounces.

And then there are those “propane” canisters mentioned above.  Those weigh the same as a butane canister.  That’s confusing because you need a heavier steel bottle to be strong enough to withstand the higher pressure of propane.

 

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

@ Jerry @ Dan

I still think a compiled list and comparision would be beneficial

UltraFlame (8 oz) $12.99 Canadian ($9.87 USD) (only available in Canada? Outside US?)

MSR Isobutane (8 oz) $5.95 USD (readily available)

UltraFlame – Refillable

 

My 2 cents

[Jerry Adams]

yeah, good idea

[DAN-Y]

BOSS Torch fuel rated by Roger to be at least 80% propane 20% butane available in USA

http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/Propane-Fuel-Canister-With-Lindal-Valve.php

BOSS and UltraFlame are torch fuels with lindal valves.  Both refillable.

isobutane like MSR Isopro is good down to 21 F with upright stove.

propane is good down to -34 F

[Roger Caffin]

If anything, the threads will get worn out causing the canister to be not usable.
Sorry, but this is totally wrong. I speak from sad experience here.

You have a ratty half-formed (ie not full depth) rough thread on the STEEL canister, as you can see here. This is an actual sawn canister.

There is a medium-strength BRASS thread on most stoves, as shown below on the left. Brass is SOFT compared to formed steel.

On the left we have the thread on a new Snow Peak GST-100 stove.
On the right we have the thread on my old Snow Peak GST-100 stove.
As you can see, the thread on the old stove has been stripped for half its depth. It can no longer grip on a canister. Why only ‘half its depth’? Because the thread on the steel canister is formed to only half its proper depth. It only gripped on the tips of the brass thread. There is not enough steel in the wall of the canister nipple to do any better.

In effect, when the screw-thread design was made, cheapness rather than long life of the canister was the aim. The solution at the time was to ban refilling the canister, which suited the canister makers of course. But this did not save the brass thread on the stoves.

How the really UL cheap all-aluminium stoves go, I do not know. They have a heavy Al-oxide layer on them, which might give them an adequate life, if you are lucky.

Sadly, the damage to my stove surfaced in the middle of the Pyrenees one year. It is a major reason for my whole stove-making exercise.

Cheers

[DAN-Y]

If anything, the threads will get worn out causing the canister to be not usable.
Sorry, but this is totally wrong. I speak from sad experience here.

Absolutely, I agree. Jerry has excellent results refilling his canister over a long period of time.

 

[DAN-Y]

Quote:

Whats the difference between PROPANE gas VS. BUTANE gas?
LPG, or Liquefied Petroleum Gas, is the term widely used to describe a family of light hydrocarbons. The two most prominent members of this family are propane and butane.
Both types of gases are used for industrial and household purposes and have similar qualities that is why people often confuse them. There are certain differences between butane and propane which could either be advantageous or disadvantageous depending on how they are being used.
SIMILARITIES
Both are extracted from petroleum in oil or natural gas form. When combusted, they produce carbon dioxide, water, carbon monoxide and soot. Both are used to fuel vehicles and for heating stoves.
DIFFERENCES
Propane has a lower boiling point than butane so it will continue to convert from a liquid to a gas even in very cold conditions, down to -45ºC. When stored as a liquid in a tank, it exerts a greater pressure than Butane at the same temperature. So Propane, as an LPG, is most suitable for exterior storage and use. Its ability to operate in low temperatures makes it the most suitable LPG for many applications. Propane is widely used as a fuel source for domestic and commercial heating, hot water and cooking. It also has a wide range of uses in industry and agriculture. When the fuel needs to be stored for a long time, propane is a better choice than butane. When people need to go camping, hiking or mountain climbing, especially in cold weather, propane is preferred over butane as a fuel for cooking.
Butane has the lower vapor pressure at equivalent temperatures and is suitable for interior use or outside during the summer. Butane is a very common fuel among leisure users and owners of portable heaters and is known to be cheaper than Propane.
Propane and butane are normally stored in either portable steel cylinders or small bulk fixed storage tanks ready for use.

https://www.thegascompany.ie/content/117-what-is-the-difference-between-propane-gas-vs-butane-gas

[DAN-Y]

Quote:

Backpacking canister fuels,  typically use a blend of propane, isobutane and/or butane. Each of these fuels falls into the general class of Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG), but there are some important differences between them that can have a real impact on the quality of your stove experience—particularly if you camp in cold weather, or go for long trips and use your stove for more than a few minutes at a time.

The key difference between propane, isobutane and butane is what’s referred to as their “vapor pressure.” Vapor pressure describes a fuel’s ability to vaporize and keep the canister pressurized at a given temperature. LPG fuels exist as liquid under high pressures and in cold temperatures. Pure propane, for example, is liquid at -44°F/-42°C at sea level. You could pour it into a cup and it would sit there like water without vaporizing off. For this reason, pure propane wouldn’t do so well to power a stove in those kinds of extreme conditions.

Fuel canisters filled with a low-vapor-pressure fuel lose their pressure faster during use because as fuels vaporize, they cool. The combination of the low-vapor-pressure fuel and this natural cooling phenomenon leads to very poor stove performance. And, when outside temperatures are cold, low-vapor-pressure fuels will fail to perform altogether, while other fuels or fuel mixes will keep on charging.

So which fuels are which? Let’s take a look at them one-by-one:

Propane (C3H8)
Sea level boiling point: -44°F/-42°C. Of the three types of common LPG fuels you’ll find in the camping section, propane provides the highest vapor pressure and therefore the best cold-weather performance. And while that’s a good thing, pure propane requires a much heavier canister to safely withstand that high pressure. This is why lightweight canisters often use a mix of propane and either butane or isobutane.
Isobutane (C4H10)
Sea level boiling point: 11°F/-12°C. This is the next best thing to propane. Isobutane shares the same molecular formula as normal butane (see below), but the shape of its molecule makes isobutane far superior in terms of vapor pressure. Again, high vapor pressure translates to better performance. Isobutane is also a more expensive fuel to source and process than butane, so you’ll usually find it in the higher-quality canisters.
Normal Butane or “N-butane” (C4H10)
Sea level boiling point: 30°F/-1°C. Butane lands at the bottom of the heap. It is the cheapest and poorest-performing fuel on the list. It delivers the lowest pressure and therefore the worst stove performance in many conditions. If you’ve ever wondered how your favorite big-box store can sell fuel canisters at such a bargain price, it’s often because those brands use 100% n-butane. But here some marketing honesty is important: If you only camp in warm weather and for short periods, you can likely get by with the performance n-butane offers.
The formulation of MSR IsoPro fuel

MSR IsoPro fuel is a mix of 20% propane and 80% isobutane. (Manufacturing tolerances allow up to 6% n-butane, but this is minimized as much as possible and typically falls below 2%.) Because we use isobutane (instead of the cheaper n-butane), and a higher-than-average proportion of propane, IsoPro fuel is undoubtedly top-shelf.

Are there other fuels with the same mix? Possibly. Again, in the interest of true transparency, many leading brands’ canisters are manufactured at one of two or three factories. This explains the pseudo-standardization of canister shapes and dimensions. But the fuel mix still varies by brand, and this can be difficult to ascertain.

Canister designs and valves

Moving beyond the chemistry of the fuel, let’s consider the canister itself. Many canisters use a standardized threaded Lindal valve. A canister with a Lindal valve should be compatible with any stove designed around this standard. And that compatibility generally does pan out. Fortunately for consumers, a European standard (EN 417) governs fuel canisters and the construction of the valve. So as long as the canister is well-manufactured, most consumers don’t have any problems using their stove with a different brand’s fuel canister. We cannot guarantee the quality of manufacture of any other brand. But by and large the reputable brands use good, compatible valves.

Last, consider the graphics and colors on the outside of the fuel canister. MSR IsoPro cans are bright red for good visibility at night, and they feature a “float gage” printed on the side. This gage allows you to float the canister in still water and measure the approximate amount of fuel remaining—a huge convenience when planning for your trip or even in the field. (We’d like to thank Hikin’ Jim of Adventures in Stoving for bringing this concept to our attention. It’s a winner!)

[Roger Caffin]

Source of quotation? I suspect MSR.

Pure propane, for example, is liquid at -44°F/-42°C at sea level. You could pour it into a cup and it would sit there like water without vaporizing off. For this reason, pure propane wouldn’t do so well to power a stove in those kinds of extreme conditions.
Very misleading.
Change that to is liquid BELOW -44°F/-42°C at sea level and you are in business. Whether you want to be at -42 C is another matter.
Better point out that the same applies to n-butane below 0 C of course.

If you’ve ever wondered how your favorite big-box store can sell fuel canisters at such a bargain price, it’s often because those brands use 100% n-butane.
Doubtful or even false. They are cheap because they are using unrefined butane of an undefined mix. To use 100% n-butane would be expensive: a lot of extra refining would be needed.

Isobutane is also a more expensive fuel to source and process than butane, so you’ll usually find it in the higher-quality canisters.
Misleading, for the same reasons given above. Refined iso-butane is a bit more expensive than unrefined ‘butane’.

Cabin fever…
Cheers

[DAN-Y]

Quote:

isobutane like MSR Isopro is good down to 21 F with upright stove.

propane is good down to -34 F

at normal temperatures, like 72 F or 110 F, propane has much higher pressure than butane.  It’s a consequence of it’s lower boiling temperature which is what makes it better a cold temps.

Quote:

Therefore, you need one of those heavy steel bottles – 16 ounce bottle weighs 13.9 ounces.  They don’t make 4 or 8 ounce propane bottles (ignoring the canisters mentioned previously)

But, you can put propane into a regular butane canister as long as you keep it below 72 F or so (I’m not sure about exactly what temp).  I remember David said he’s done that, maybe in 2016?  8 ounce butane canister weighs 5 ounces.  4 ounce canister weighs 3 ounces.

And then there are those “propane” canisters mentioned above.  Those weigh the same as a butane canister.  That’s confusing because you need a heavier steel bottle to be strong enough to withstand the higher pressure of propane.

 

Jerry good information there!

 

[Jerry Adams]

more good info Dan, it all paints a complete picture

yeah, the 100% n butane is incorrect, more like 50% isobutane, 50% nbutane.  The path from raw gas through refinery isn’t well accounted for.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

The thread still needs a good summary.  If I am reading this correctly, the  key points are

Propane (as a fuel) excells at really cold temperatures (down to -34F)

Propane works with some regulated stoves but not all

The initial purchase price is 2X isobutane

This particular canister is small and can be refilled (smaller and lower operating cost)

 

Is this correct?

[David Gardner]

Good outline. I would only add “Safety up to at least 120* F”

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

@David – are you saying that the new canisters are only good to 120F?  If so, that is a significant issue to me.  A weeek ago, it was 1230 F outside my house, let alone what temperatures that would exist inside a car/glovebox/trunk.

[David Gardner]

1230 F!!! Ouch! Venus?

That’s why I said “at least.” I was just throwing a base minimum temperature out there. What do you suggest? 200 maybe? Anyone know what the DOT standard is?

[Jerry Adams]

I looked at several canister brands, all say 120 F maximum temperature on the outside

MSR IsoPro, Snow Peak Gigapower, Max Burton, Max, Max Cartridge, Coleman Propane 16 oz cylinder, Ronson butane lighter fuel

[David Gardner]

Thanks Jerry. I thought I remembered something like that.

[Author]

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