UL Propane stove with 300 BAR refillable 0.6L composite fuel bottle?

[David Gardner]

@pierre: If you’re serious, in addition to what Roger said, you might want to consider setting it up in something like a bomb disposal containment vessel that would suppress lateral shock waves and direct them upward, or at least some kind of blast wall between you and the setup.

[David Gardner]

MSDS and SDS on the way. Couldn’t find an image of the back of the can. Thanks for taking a look.

[Roger Caffin]

In https://backpackinglight.com/exploding_gas_canisters_the_hazard_of_overheating/
where I heated a canister to explosion, I used an electric hot plate, a pot of water with the canister in it, a remote thermometer, and I hid inside a steel shed. Due to the water in the pot, the blast went mostly upwards. By design!

(The stock screw-thread canister blew just below 100 C.)

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

David G has sent me the MSDS, for which much thanks.

The MSDS data is mostly about the contents, and not about the can. Yes, it would seem to be propane.

But there are some serious errors in the data: in the MSDS they say VP 70 mm Hg (1.35 psi) at 70 F, which is utterly ridiculous. The web site says 70 psi, which is still quite wrong.

Hum – DODGY!

Cheers

[David Gardner]

Ah, you get to have all the fun.

I’m surprised the stock canister blew at less than 100 C, since it should be predictable that a canister might get inadvertently dropped into a pot of boiling temperature water.

Regarding the BlueFlame, nota bene: DODGY

[David Gardner]

I just sent the following to the Princess Auto contact form:

“I have some questions about your UltraFlame 8 oz Propane Gas Cylinder. I can’t see in the image, or in the MSDS or SDS, a country of origin, or if it is DOT approved. Also, I think the MSDS has a serious error in the data: it says “VP 70 mm Hg” [1.35 psi] at 70 F, which is WAY too low. Your website says 70 psi, which is still too low. Do you have accurate data?”

I’ll post if/when I hear back.

[Pierre Descoteaux]

I’ll see what I can do in the next few days.  And I’ll use appropriate precautions.

[David Thomas]

I’ve run some butane-mix stoves on pure propane at sea level and they seemed to run fine.  No yellow flame, no signs of incomplete combustion.  Propane on a cold day has the same vapor pressure as butane on a hot day.  The ratio of fuel vapor to atmospheric air is a bit different, and might suggest a slightly different orifice size, but it would vary less than atmospheric pressure does in the 85 air miles from Badwater in Death Vally to Whitney summit (1.01  and 0.58 atm, respectively).

Specifically, pure butane or any of its isomers (although we’re often using an 80/20 butane/propane mix) requires 6.321 liters of air to each liter of butane.  While propane requires 8.365 liters of air per liter of liter of propane vapor.   So, ideally, propane would be jetted through an orifice about 10% smaller in diameter to give less mass-flow of propane but have a higher velocity to impart more atmospheric air flow.

[Roger Caffin]

I agree with David.
Cheers

[Nigel Ward]

FWIW, these are also sold by Canadian Tire, a large nation-wide hardware store found in most Canadian towns & cities. The Ultra Flame company os based in Ontario, Canada, I believe.

[Aleksi K]

Another competitor for this market are white gas stoves. Cheap, widely available fuel and no waste.

When I compared different fuel options available locally, the energy per weight ratio for propane bottles was much worse compared to white gas, even with large composite bottles. I would be surprised if small bottles can have anything but a too low energy per weight ratio.

Personally I am not so worried about the waste issue. We also buy other consumables in metal cans, like tomatoes and beans. All of those go to metal recycling. Of course it takes more resources to build a complicated gas can and haven’t really looked into this in much detail.

[James Marco]

Yes, the heat content of WG vs butane/propane is very close. The actual fuel needed is a lot less weight (especially if you use a plastic soda bottle for WG.) The pressure vessel is always heavier. The 100gm of fuel also requires about 100gm of container. But for WG only about 30gm is needed for 500gm fuel. The big downside is the weight of the stove to burn WG.

[Nick Gatel]

The big downside is the weight of the stove to burn WG.

Yeah, the extra 10 or so ounces of a Svea 123 is going to ruin your trip and spreadsheet. Of course you don’t have to deal with spent cartridges going into a landfill, the carbon footprint of manufacturing and transporting these vessels, or the extra time, expense, and potential danger of refilling canisters that is not approved by the canister manufacturers or DOT.

Bit I get why people do this and it is an interesting experiment DG is into, plus a lot of us are going to learn more about the properties of these gases when experts like DT and RC are commenting on the various fuels.

[Jerry Adams]

WG is smellier

WG is more dangerous – the liquid sits there and forms a cloud of gas that can explode

butane/propane evaporate more quickly and blow away.  Unless you’re in an enclosed space.

when priming a WG stove it can make a ball of flame that singes your eyebrows.  Although if you’re careful this can be mostly avoided.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

Maybe you can convert your SVEA to use this can on the bottom to save weight!

[James Marco]

Jerry, Actually White gas is SAFER according to your criteria.
It is far less volatile than butane/propane. The liquid needs to evaporate before it ignites. Butane/propane is already evaporated. Try dropping a cigarette into a bucket of WG.
Both WG and Propane/butane smell bad. But, if you get liquid gas on you it can linger for a couple days because it is less volatile.
Sorry, but I just don’t see your reasoning.

[David Gardner]

Canadian Tire doesn’t ship to the US. Bummer.

[Jerry Adams]

propane/butane quickly evaporate and blow away

WG just sits there and slowly evaporates

I think maybe propane/butane fumes are lighter so rise, WG fumes are heavier so can stay near the ground?

I’ve singed my eyebrows multiple times with WG, never with butane

I know someone that used WG to start a fire, burned their kid’s legs, of course this is just anecdotal : )

If you’re in an enclosed space, then propane/butane can accumulate and explode – don’t do this

[Nigel Ward]

Does anybody ship propane (or butane) anywhere? I don’t think USPS will carry it. The first store says ‘in store only item’, so they won’t ship even to Canadian addresses (I’m a Canadian resident).

[David Gardner]

I ordered four “Gas One” 8 oz. butane canisters from Amazon a couple of weeks ago and they arrived via FedEx. Might have been one of those outlaw independent/affiliate merchants though.

[Nigel Ward]

On checking, it appears that Canadain Tire will ship this item to a Canadian address. Clearly different carriers have different rules.

[David Thomas]

I’ve seen lots of Amazon listings that would ship butane to the 48 states (I suspect some of those are properly labeled for surface-only shipping) and found some that ship to Alaska (those were not properly labeled).

Regarding hazards: I’ve never been the guilty one in any (unintentional) gasoline or white gas explosions, despite handling it several times a week while fueling the car, lawn mower, chain saws, MSR, SVEA, etc.  OTOH, I didn’t have to shave my lower legs during March 1992 nor in May 2003 because ground-hugging propane, un-smelled by me, reached a pilot light and ignited. The second time it happened, I knew exactly what that warm feeling traveling up between my shins and my pants was – all my leg hairs burning off. The explosion, breaking windows and smell of singed materials were other clues.

Thankfully, both were low clouds of propane vapor, burning at the air/propane interface, rather than pre-mixed air & fuel. I never went airborne.

[David Thomas]

I agree with Jerry’s point in that I’ve had more exciting times with WG stoves, especially when restarting a hot one, than with propane / butane stoves.

Not a huge safety concern while 3-season camping since one’s eyebrows eventually grow back, but in a mountaineering setting, when your tent is critical to your survival, WG flare-ups seem more of a safety issue and we now have Moulder Strips giving us butane operation below -20F, although I can see the weight per BTU advantage of WG containers in settings requiring lots of snow-melting.

[David Gardner]

David T: But you shave your lower legs the rest of the time?

[Jerry Adams]

ahhh…  so propane vapors are also heavier than air and can accumulate on the ground

maybe it’s that with a backpacking butane canister, the amount of butane released is small so there isn’t enough to be a huge hazard

your propane experience David, must have been with household propane tanks which are much bigger so can release large amounts?

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