To Ditch my wind shirt or not? Patagonia Storm Racer double duty?

No waterproof jacket will perform well as a wind jacket.  You need to be in very strong winds before that level of protection is necessary.

That said, if you only need a little warmth at the beginning of your hike and you never need a general active layer throughout the day then a WPB jacket will get the job done.  You’ll get clammy but by the time you work up a sweat you’re warmed up and it’s time to remove a layer anyways.  Your down jacket could be used the same way.

Personally I want an active layer of some kind while at elevation.

Paul, thanks for the fast reply! Yes, basically what I’m afraid I’d be missing is that little extra warmth for the the first couple miles. But like you said, once I’m clammy, I’m warmed up.  The idea of an active layer like a fleece makes sense to me.  I just never get cold enough to want one for backpacking. I would like to just use the rain jacket as a less than ideal morning active layer. Just wasn’t sure if that sounds like a bad plan.

Matt – below are two helpful BPL threads on this topic:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/wind-shirts/#post-3437569
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/wind-shells-as-rain-gear-does-it-work-and-how/

Yep, ditch the windshirt and upgrade your wpb shell. There are zips on the shell after all for ventilation. During the day, when I stop on a windy pass, for example, my Rab Demand wp shell is just fine; In fact, I like that it isn’t as breezy as a windshirt in those conditions.

Sure, you may miss a fraction of performance for a few hours in the morning, but on the bpl principle of ‘make things do double duty to save weight’, I go without the windshirt.

And yes I own a windshirt and wear it on some day hikes at home,. when it’s not raining.

That probably depends on many factors, but I can only speak for myself. I tend to sweat a lot and overheat quickly in rain shells, so to me, a rain shell is a poor replacement for a windshirt. I like a windshirt on the more breathable side as well (I use a 2011 Patagonia Houdini). If you don’t sweat a lot or overheat in a shell it might be an OK swap.

One other thing to think of though, rain shells are expensive, and don’t last long. Once the DWR wears off they are never the same (nor can you revive the DWR exquisitely in my experience – its never the same as the factory DWR). I wouldn’t want to abrade/degrade the DWR on my rain shell, nor get un- necessary sweat and body oils in my shell that would give it a shorter life.

If the DWR wears off my windshirt, I am not as concerned, and if get a pinhole in it (from a thorn or brush) it’s not nearly as big of a deal to me as it would be on my hard shell.

Just my two cents

Waterproof and breathable are lies manufacturers tell. It probably depends on conditions, but you’ll likely be more comfortable in the wind shirt. They weigh next to nothing, too.

Try the rain jacket on a day hike in weather you’d normally wear a wind shirt and see if it works for you. HYOH.

Thanks for all the responces.

I should have mentioned one of the things I previously used my windshirt for was added protection in conjunction with my poncho during rain. My poncho really only covered my core, and although the windshirt isn’t waterproof, it kept me warmer when worn underneath the poncho. Since I’m replacing the poncho with a jacket regardless, I won’t need the windshirt for this function. The other use was as an active layer, but really only early mornings.  My thinking was that if temps look really low I could always pack a fleece, and on more average temps make the rain shell work.  Brad Rogers mentions the Houdini being a “more breathable” wind shirt. This is a good point. Is my montbell wind shirt even really that breathable? I’m not sure if there’s actual data on this type of stuff. I’ve sweated in it. Does anyone have any feedback on the storm racer or other 3 layer jackets in the 6oz range. I can’t image the montbell being that much more comfy in the majority of conditions. I think I’ll purchase the jacket since I have a current hook up with patagonia and test it on some day hikes. If i like it, I’ll probably keep the wind shirt as a go to day hiking layer.

Also the rain shell weighs only 1 oz more than my poncho. So if I kept the windshirt im only gaining one oz. I just like having less overall items in my pack.

. THE BEST CLOTHING COMBINATIONS FOR BACKPACKING OR HIKING? .

. A VISUAL PARADIGM FOR WINDSHIRTS – MULTIPLE AXIS OF UNDERSTANDING.-REV 0 .

Dave Chenault’s blog post about Andrew Skurka’s Core 13 clothing choices and his observations( Dave uses a windshirt and Andrew doesn’t and why with a link to Andrew article in his article)  Skurka’s Core 13 .  I personally like windshirts( I live in Seattle and hike in the PNW mainly) because it’s a couple of ounces and I get cold easily and sweat easily so it works for me but everyone is different and you will get a lot of different answers so the answer is to see what works for you. I am editing to add one more for you

. I LOST MY HOUDINI. WHAT NOW? .

Some people like rain jackets, some windshirts, try both and see which you prefer

In the PNW I need a real WPB rain jacket on most trips.  Windshirt doesn’t provide enough rain protection.

I’ll wear the rain jacket in the morning if it’s cold.  Also mid layer if really cold.  When I start getting warm, first I’ll take off mid layer, then unzip jacket, then take it off.  There is no temperature range where it’s too cold for just base layer but too warm for unzipped jacket.

Water Proof Breathable is only somewhat waterproof and breathable.  There are conditions where you’ll get wet.  There are conditions where you’ll get wet in any garment.  The best WPBs are pretty good in most conditions.

I’m a bit of an outlier, but more important than breathable is to not have too much insulation so you don’t start sweating profusely.  In that case, it’s hard to get rid of regardless of breathability.

Brad Rogers mentions the Houdini being a “more breathable” wind shirt. This is a good point. Is my montbell wind shirt even really that breathable? I’m not sure if there’s actual data on this type of stuff. I’ve sweated in it. Does anyone have any feedback on the storm racer or other 3 layer jackets in the 6oz range. I can’t image the montbell being that much more comfy in the majority of conditions.

There has been some testing (search the forums for the specific stats) and anecdotal data for your questions:

• Montbell Tachyon has been tested at 9-10 CFM (aka breathes a little bit)
• Old Houdini has been tested to ideal CFM (35 I think?)
• New Houdini is nearly as bad as a rain jacket (1-3 CFM I think?)
• Most WPB rain jackets are 0-0.5 CFM
• Anecdotal evidence (link): one user of the new GoreTex ShakeDry jacket said his ShakeDry had less moisture build up than this Houdini. Considering the Houdini barely breathes it’s not a groundbreaking assessment but worth noting IMO.

It sounds like you’ve never worn a truly breathable wind jacket so you won’t notice a big difference between leaving it for a WPB jacket.  A microfleece is arguably the better mid layer anyways.

Partly your decision might depend on where you hike. In California where I hike, there are very very few moments when my old school Houdini comes in handy during the summer months. In the early spring, when I’m in snow, maybe–but I’d bring fleece for that. I hike in a sun shirt with nothing underneath during the day–it’s warm to hot in California. In Washington and Oregon, you need a wp jacket, and it’s cool enough that that works fine as a wind shirt, I think. A wind shirt does little to nothing for me when I’m in camp.

So maybe in the fall it will be cool enough during the day to want to hike in a windshirt. Or, maybe you hike in colder climates.

sorry, this is rushed! gotta go.

I’ve used an OR Helium for years as my backpacking rainshell, it does double duty as a windshirt when needed and for extra warmth while hiking at night or early mornings. Don’t overthink it, any rainshell will work as wind protection and keep you warmer while hiking in the cold. Vent with the main zipper or take it off if you get too hot.

This is always a subject full of debate. I always take a windshirt (Houdini for past 8 years or so), plus rain gear. Windshirts are not designed to be rain gear. I have found WPB garments to not breath well for me.

Here is my opinion on windshirts. Not everyone will agree. It works for me and there is no reason for me to change. If others disagree, that is fine because there is no “right” answer.

Here is my opinion on WBP: The Search for the Holy Grail: Waterproof Breathable Rain Gear. Again, it works for me, which all the matters; and it may not work for others — that is fine too.

I use a wpb rain jacket (OR Helium HD) as a windshirt as well. No problems with overheating or excessive moisture. It has plenty of ventilation via mesh-backed pockets and pit zips, and of course the main zipper. I don’t have any feedback on the Storm Racer shell though.