Time for a rain gear upgrade? Questions about Z-Packs Challenger jacket

Have you looked at the Packa?  I haven’t tried one and don’t have the same requirements out here in ever-dry SoCal, but I just saw one for sale on Hammock Forums.

I had a North Face jacket that failed, but they gave me a gift card to buy a new one.  the one I chose is heavy, but would go on treks where I’m expecting constant rain and colder weather.  Since then I also picked up a Patagonia Alpine Houdini that was pretty light at $99 on sale.  My rain pants failed too – same stormy dayhike early last spring, but I can’t decide to just skip them or try a rain kilt.  I do have some untried Frogg Toggs, which are probably enough for me given how often I’ll need them.

If you go with Z-Packs I’ll be interested to hear your feedback.

-Slbear

I have a challenger jacket. I’ve used it on a few trips. It’s a decent jacket. I use it in this video: Hiking and Packrafting across Kodiak Island

How durable is the fabric really? (consider the pack rubbing on it as well as underbrush with thorns)

Nothing stops thorns short of thick PVC coated material. Nothing. Stay out of thorny vegetation if you want your raingear to survive. In terms of resistance to scuffs and tears, it seems solid. The cuben/spectra layer and the polyester face fabric seems to do a good job here. The lining durability is average in my experience compared to other 2.5 layer WPB fabrics (Event, goretex).

Do the cuffs gather at the wrist to prevent rain running back down the arm?

Yes, as well as typical velcro fold-over wrists. The lack of thick double layers of fabric and lots of stitching also allows the wrist cuffs to dry more quickly. I find the arms to be a touch on the short side for some uses (packrafting) but for general hiking, the sizing is fine.

The pit zips – do they make a big enough difference to justify the cost? (what I really want is zips that go down to the waist so that I have basically a poncho with arm coverage)

Yes, get the pit zips. No question. All waterproof jackets need pit zips if you are going to be exerting yourself in them in the rain. I don’t care how “breathable” they are.

The combo of Event and cuben seems like a recipe for poor durability. Event has a mixed records under hard use, to say the least, even when laminated to more conventional fabrics. It will take a lot of evidence to change my mind on this, especially with experience like Max’s:

http://maxneale.blogspot.com/2015/11/zpacks-challenger-rain-jacket-and-pants.html

Humid, hard rain in a place like the Smokies with a thick understory is tough going regardless of gear. Something like a poncho or the Sierra Designs rain gear, with lots of built in venting, is the least worst option if the rain is too hard or brush too thick for an umbrella.

Windshirt is another question entirely.

I have not had the face fabric delamination (yet). Funny, but I thought the Challenger rain pants were HORRIBLE, mostly due the atrocious fit. There is no articulation anywhere. Zero. It fit like a kindergarten class paper doll cutout. I can see how the jacket would be bad for climbing with short sleeves that you can’t raise above your head without the jacket riding up. It is far from tailored in any case.

I second the recommendation to check out the packa.  It’s my current choice of upper body rain gear

If you want a UL “traditional” rain jacket with pit zips, take a look at the Montbell Versalite.

Not had a problem with wear with my challenger jacket but it’s a terrible jacket.

The build quality is terrible, mine is the long version and the extra length is literally just stuck on with tape, even worse these seams do not overlap, so you have the white under layer of the jacket showing.

The hood is terrible with very little adjustment and it’s impossible for me to get a good seal around my face, a big problem in hard driving rain.

I’ve seen a better cut and fit on homeless peoples bin liner “jackets”

The zip has no internal flap, mine leaks after around 30 mins hard rain.

By far the worst thing is the jacket has absolutely zero DWR.

I spoke with Zpacks a couple of times but they seem unwilling to recommend a particular product to apply DWR, absolutely no idea why they wouldn’t do it from the factory!!

In real world use the zip leaks with 30 mins, the area around the face becomes a waterfall dripping water inside the jacket, even if you managed to avoid driving rain the jacket wets out after about 1 hour so you end up soaking wet anyways.

If it was breathable i could forgive it, but my Montane Further Faster jacket is noticeably more breathable even though it has no pit zips.

I can’t think of a single scenario where the challenger jacket would do well.

If it’s light or stop start rain then i’d just get wet

If it’s hard rain for hours then i want a decent 3 layer waterproof jacket.

If it’s light or stop start rain then i’d just get wet…If it’s hard rain for hours then i want a decent 3 layer waterproof jacket.

Exactly! There simply is no single rain gear system that works for all conditions. Just like quilts, you need a rain gear quiver.

– If it hot, I’d choose to just get wet…actually feels good.
– If it’s cool enough that getting wet is dangerous and it’s light or stop-start rain, then UL gear like the OR Helium or Montbell Versatile work great.
– If the weather is nasty and you are going to be living in your rain gear all day, or for days, the 3L technology of your choice is warranted. I prefer 3L GoreTex Pro (Shell?).

Really good thread HERE with much discussion about strategies for prolonged nasty wetness.

For temps above 50 degrees.

I know you said you didn’t want a poncho, but you could combine your rain kilt with a shortened (waist length) Luke’s Silpoly poncho (4.9 oz) . It’s already shorter than most ponchos at 6′ 10″, but you can take off another foot and bring it down to about 4.2 oz. Of course with shock cord and a cord lock you could control how tight you want the waist to be at any given time.

Perhaps combine the mini poncho with a 4.7 oz Snow Peak UL umbrella and you can pull the hood off the poncho when it’s not too windy to use the umbrella. You might even be able to go with just the umbrella and rain kilt alone when the rain’s light and there’s little wind.

For temps below 50 degrees.

I’d go with an MB Versalite (6.7 oz) and UL umbrella combo. 11.4 oz total. I just don’t see how you can get any lighter and still be well ventilated, yet be able to handle sustained cold rains without wetting through. As far as a UL rain jacket that’s well ventilated and can also withstand heavy rains over long periods? I don’t think they exist. And the Versalite is 15d nylon, not cuben fiber.

I wouldn’t worry too much about long term durability though. There’s often a higher cost to going Ultralight?

http://andrewskurka.com/2016/clothing-skills-backpacking-in-the-rain-reader-question/

Beautiful video, Philip. Thanks for sharing.

I’ve found the Challenger jacket to be excellent for my needs. The lack of DWR is exactly why I got it, no maintenance. I’m not in a position to comment on durability, but enthusiastically endorse the pit zips.  I don’t look for a tight cut, so the tailoring works well for me.

I pair mine with an umbrella and rain kilt, plus gaiters. Nothing will keep you perfectly dry in hard blowing conditions,  but I like the ventilation just fine. I’m not a hard hiker, and tend to dawdle when hiking by myself in the rain to help manage moisture.

I just did a few hours of trail work cutting brush in a Marmot Speed Lite Goretex Active jacket in a solid downpour driven by strong winds. The jacket is a couple of years old, but I’ve treated it well. Water was running off me in sheets. I got totally soaked from head to foot by the time I hiked out through wet grass and brush. Let’s face it: nothing works. Absolutely nothing. It’s a fool’s errand to look for something that does in truly severe conditions.

Ok, so let’s forget trying to stay dry in sustained downpours. What is lightweight and gets enough airflow while still keeping you dry for drizzle, or stop and go rain?

And why have both a windshirt and a rain shell? Why not one for both? Is it because in sustained winds, a windshirt will allow you to keep dry even while sweating?

If those are your criteria, then the Zpacks will do fine. Despite my reservations about it and those voiced here by others (which I largely agree with), it is fine in light rain with pit zips. It’s not tailored or fancy, but it is light and tear resistant. I think the hood is acceptable. All DWR fails (it’s a matter of time). It works as a wind shell with the zips open in temperate climates. It works as a rain shell in light precipitation. It’s a jacket. Not fancy, not highly articulated… just a jacket.

Thank you. I’m still struggling with the idea of spending $260 to go to pit zips. The weight drop is only 2oz and I don’t think that includes the weight of the pit zips.

Are there other options?

Challenger jacket deal:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/zpacks-challenger?referer=BS4J98

Let’s face it: nothing works. Absolutely nothing. It’s a fool’s errand to look for something that does in truly severe conditions.

Ok, so let’s forget trying to stay dry in sustained downpours. What is lightweight and gets enough airflow while still keeping you dry for drizzle, or stop and go rain?

Here’s one of the difficulties… what work’s for one person doesn’t work for another. So my solutions may not work for many others.

If you want to stay dry in prolonged severe rain you need two things

1. Waterproof rain gear
2. Rain gear that has lots and lots of airflow

The only thing that does this is a poncho. A typical poncho has other difficulties in some conditions which relates to a lot of material that can blow around in wind and catch on shrubs, thorns, etc. Some of these can be mitigated. Most ponchos have a horrible hood.

The most popular post on my blog by far is The Search for the Holy Grail: Waterproof Breathable Rain Gear, which is unusual because most people come to my site to read about camping trailers. But it highlights the difficulty of finding rain gear that works. In this post I discuss the problems and what works best for me and why.

Last year Sierra Designs released some new rain gear that tries to rely on airflow. I don’t know if it works or not, but you might want to research it. I like the concept, but am not looking to replace what I have.

And why have both a windshirt and a rain shell? Why not one for both? Is it because in sustained winds, a windshirt will allow you to keep dry even while sweating?

Because a rain shell is not truly breathable. The whole purpose of a windshirt is a garment that blocks wind and breathes. Since you can wear just a base layer or add other layers under the windshirt, you shouldn’t be sweating if your layers are adjusted to the conditions. I find the subject somewhat frustrating because I have been using a windshirt and a separate rain shell for decades; and the false promises of Gore-Tex and their brethren along with the UL hope that everything must be multi-purpose keeps people from just accepting the fact that both items should be packed for most trips. To me multi-purpose means something that can do several things, but none of them well. I use my wind shirt more than any other piece of gear in my pack. A few years ago I wrote about The Patagonia Houdini Windshirt with the hope I could explain why a standalone windshirt is important. Maybe it will be helpful, maybe not.

I’m with Nick. I purchased a Zpacks wind shirt this spring and have been very happy with its versatility and pack size/weight. It works OK in light precipitation, but it’s not a substitute for rain gear. I tuck it in my camera bag most days. I wish I’d bought a wind shirt years ago.

I also bought a Sierra Designs Cagoule and rain chaps. I haven’t worn the rain gear enough to feel comfortable reviewing it, but I do like the length and ventilation offered by a long jacket & chaps. Short of a poncho, I doubt you’ll find better ventilation in a top to bottom system. I started a thread here with photos of the SD gear, and the Skurka links above discuss it, too. I think SD’s take on ventilation is worth a look.

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/2016-sierra-designs-elite-cagoule-chaps-overview/

I also think there’s little chance of staying completely dry in some conditions. The rain will get in, the moisture won’t get out, or more likely, both.

The lack of DWR is exactly why I got it, no maintenance.

Diane,
I’m struggling to understand the logic behind that statement.

DWR is what makes breathable rain shells works, without it they “wet out”

Choosing a “breathable” shell jacket that doesn’t have any DWR means it’s just not going toi work from the offset

It’s like buying a car then deciding not to put petrol or diesel in it cause then it’ll cost you more to run, if that’s a important criteria why by the car in the first case?

I do agree that in warm wet conditions it’s almost impossible to stay dry, my experience has been you often get as wet with sweat as you would if went without a jacket.

I think it’s important to point out a few things that is often missed though.

1/ Warm wet weather is not really much of a problem, it’s rare it rains consistently all day in these conditions and if you’re wearing synthetic clothing you often dry out between rain showers.

2/ If it gets colder or more importantly if it windy AND cold then a rain shell is absolutely essential for prolonged rain.

Even IF your rain shell lets water in, at least it’s stopping the wind cutting through.

Even at a fairly mild 10c if you’re wet through and it’s windy hypothermia is a real threat.

3/ I’ve read posts saying no jacket keeps you dry.

I’m sorry but that is absolute nonsense, if the weather is cool enough and you select your clothing layers to suit the level of activity you are doing then it’s fairly easy to stay rain free inside your shell jacket.

Of course contact points like your back where your rucksack is resting are going to get sweaty, but then they would get sweaty even if you hiked without a top.

On the whole though i’ve hiked 12+ hours in non stop rain and my top half has been only damp to the touch from sweat, so it’s entirely possible to stay mostly dry in certain conditions.

Another +1 on the packa option. Has our first test of ours on our last trip to the DAKs. I was very impressed with them over a poncho or jacket. With pit zips open and zipper 1/3 down we stayed dry and ventilated. I gave up on the idea of a rain jacket under the harness of a pack being capable of breathing to any worthwhile degree. Also was never impressed with any breathable fabrics when it came to the conditions it was most needed. The best thing was at the end of the day our packs and outer pocket contents were dry, and so were we. This sure help with moisture control when stashing our packs at the end of the day in the Duplex.

Choosing a “breathable” shell jacket that doesn’t have any DWR means it’s just not going toi work from the offset

It’s like buying a car then deciding not to put petrol or diesel in it cause then it’ll cost you more to run, if that’s a important criteria why by the car in the first case?

I think this is a better example:

Today there are many people who have never owned a car that requires wheel bearing maintenance. Most cars since the 80’s come with sealed wheel bearings that never require maintenance.

So if you are one of these people, one day you decide to buy a small travel trailer. Unless you read through a large package of the included owner manuals you don’t know that the trailer wheel bearings must be cleaned, inspected and repacked once a year or every 10,000 miles, whichever comes first. Lack of this maintenance can result in bearing failure and a potential serious accident. Even if you know or read about the maintenance, it is a pain. Unlike a car dealer, RV dealers normally don’t offer one day service. You would have to leave your trailer for a few days or maybe a week or two just to get the simple wheel bearing maintenance done. You could probably do it yourself — if you know how and if you have the required tools. This is how I view DWR treatments.

Who wants a garment that requires maintenance beyond washing it when it gets dirty? And at what point do you know when it is time to renew the DWR? In the middle of a long thru-hike when the garment sudden fails? Unless someone hangs out on a forum like BPL or reads the multitude of literature attached to a new WPB garment with understanding and long term retention, they aren’t going to grasp the concept of required maintenance for something as simple as a jacket.

We are a society of consumers, not mechanics. Most of us can drive a car, but can’t build an engine from scratch, or explain in detail how it works, or even repair it.

DWR is a flawed technology in a consumer society, and even if the owner of a WPB garment is knowledgeable and willing to do all the required maintenance, the technology doesn’t work as advertised. Gore-Tex garments have been available for almost 40 years and have never been the miracle promised.

Just think about the number of rain jackets every person here has bought over the years. It’s crazy. I bet the average BPL member who has been here for 10 years has bought a half dozen rain jackets in that period of time; a continuous search for the Holy Grail. But we are consumers. New packs, shelters, and rain jackets every year or two seem to be the norm. And if we believe in climate change, all those companies churning out the newest iterations of gear for the consuming masses are helping to drive the change to the environment.

I was wondering about the aspect of keeping outer pocket contents dry. Although I mostly only keep quick access items in there such as water filter, rain gear, and extra clothing layers or things I want to dry out.

And I typically leave my pack outside the tent at night…but in the vestibule perhaps it will contribute to moisture buildup?

At ~12oz, the Packa sounds appealing, but also weighs almost as much as my entire shelter!

I always keep my pack contents in a dry bag…so I didn’t think I really needed a pack cover…perhaps what we need is a cube fiber Packa.

Rain gear and cooking posts always bring out the replies and passion!  No car analogies from me.  Jacket’s that leak, don’t vent/breath at all, or are crazy expensive suck!  There’s a ton of options that don’t leak and vent/breath to some degree without costing a mint.

On the outer pocket contents, I noticed in some of Zpack’s photos they seem to have a dry bag – or at least a waterproof material bag that fills that back pocket.  That got me thinking that it would be something deployed if hiking in extended rain or stored if dry.  You could use it for some gear only if the rest could get wet.  Soaking wet clothes or a tarp for example would not benefit from being inside anything on another rainy day hike.

I’m sure the packa or a poncho would help, but the bag would be better at keeping contents dry.  DWR or wetting out doesn’t matter unless there is a person inside.

Who wants a garment that requires maintenance beyond washing it when it gets dirty? And at what point do you know when it is time to renew the DWR? In the middle of a long thru-hike when the garment sudden fails? Unless someone hangs out on a forum like BPL or reads the multitude of literature attached to a new WPB garment with understanding and long term retention, they aren’t going to grasp the concept of required maintenance for something as simple as a jacket.

We are a society of consumers, not mechanics. Most of us can drive a car, but can’t build an engine from scratch, or explain in detail how it works, or even repair it.

A fair point Nick, and DWR is inherently problematic technology, but I think you significantly overstate the difficulty of cleaning and when necessary reapplying it. More analogous to changing a flat tire on your bike in difficulty, though granted plenty of folks probably can’t do that, either. Another similarity between the two: buy good tires, have fewer flats, buy a good rain coat, DWR lasts longer.

Zack, in the end I think you’ll need to buy a rain jacket or two, and find out what suits you via experimentation. I bought the SD cagoule this year because the features intrigued me, but before that I’ve been using the same Goretex anorak for 5 years. It is possible to find something which is light, durable, and effective for a decent period of time.