Synthetic jacket for cold/wet backpacking

[Daryl and Daryl]

Roger,

Good questions.

I’ll try to address them in my next experimental walk.  I’ll wear a pack and walk off my hill (Queen Anne Hill in Seattle) then back up again.

This is fun.

Thanks.

 

[Rob P]

This was a good thread from several years ago that I found to be quite helpful:

Best Insulation System for Cold Rainy Mountains

[Daryl and Daryl]

OK, here are the results from experiment #2.  This is follow-up from experiment #1 (above) and trying to answer some of the questions Roger brought up.

For this experiment I wore a backpack and walked down and back up Queen Anne Hill in Seattle.

Weather—-60F, cloudy, 8 AM, 88% humidity, 0-5 MPH wind,

Wearing—-Backpack, shoes, nylon socks, polyester undershorts, taslan wind pants, taslan windbreaker, no hat, skin out weight =26 lbs

Trip Down Queen Anne Hill—-about .75 miles, about 3MPH, about 15 minutes. Damp sweaty but not dripping.  Cool but not cold.  Was immediately warmer than previous day due to addition of pack.  Pack restricted air movement under windbreaker due to straps and insulation.  So it felt warmer even before I started to walk.

Trip Up Queen Anne Hill—about .75 miles, about 2+MPH, about 20 minutes.  Increase in sweat immediately apparent.  Within 10 minutes sweat running off pack, glasses, nose, beading up on bald head, etc.  Cool but not cold.

End of Trip—Was immediately cold and getting colder quickly when I took the pack off in the yard. Wet clothing and body, unrestricted air movement under windbreaker and cessation of exertion all contributed.  Hands starting to get cold.  Had to change into dry clothes to stay warm in the house.

Clothing—Windbreaker was wet, windpants were wet to below pockets, undershorts were wet, shoes and socks were dry.  Windbreaker had gained 1.5+ounces in sweat weight.  Difficulty getting our of windbreaker because of clingy wet fabric.  Windbreaker and  pants are only now getting dry after hanging in house for about 2 hours.

[Roger Caffin]

Daryl – you have a problem!
I cannot help, apart from recommending fast clothing changes.

Cheers

[Daryl and Daryl]

Roger,

Thanks for the suggestions and info.  It helped me refine my thinking on the subject.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Daryl, i

I am curious about your situation and would like to be sure I understand. It seems you are saying that you cannot reach a state where you are not too cold but not sweating. So if you were moving, but so cold that you were shivering, you would still sweat?

[James Marco]

Paul, Yes. I have experienced that exact thing in winter. I was generally quite cold, borderline hypothermic. Yet, after hiking 7 miles, I was sweating at 20F, even with numb hands, nose and feet. My back, armpits, groin were still soaking wet with sweat (usual for my training hikes.)

There are several mechanisms that cause sweating. Heating generated from muscles, hormonal influences, local “warmth” sources (like a backpack being worn,) stress, Pavlovian style response mechanisms, normal “insensible” perspiration, pain, and likely a few I forgot. There is evidence for a central temperature regulation mechanism and for local regulation. Some is involuntary, some is voluntary, some is learned, again involuntary and voluntary. Some is dependent on your overall bodily fluids and electrolytes. It is a very complex subject and not one that can easily be associated with hard work, though that is probably the easiest to understand. But similar to breathing, you must sweat, if only to keep your skin soft enough to be able to move.

[Daryl and Daryl]

“So if you were moving, but so cold that you were shivering, you would still sweat?”

Correct.

[Daryl and Daryl]

 

James,

Your elaboration upon the complex subject of sweating was interesting.  Thanks.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

What Roger Caffin said.

I eschew wool for wet weather and use it only for alpine, lift-served skiing or around town. WOOL HOLDS MOISTURE far more than synthetics.

 

[Paul McLaughlin]

Daryl  — if that is the case you have my sympathy. Seems like your goal then is to determine what materials will transport the most moisture while absorbing the least. My vote in that regard would be polypropylene. Back in the deeps of time – like around 1976 – i got my first polypypro shirt. Lifa was the one and only brand at the time. Marvelous stuff. Nothing i have ever had since wicked as well or dried as fast. It had drawbacks , such as stink and shrinkage, but in your case i would look to see if any is still on the market.

Of the many polyester base layers, I would suggest looking for the most open weave you can find.

Also, my own experience is that I treat my base layer as just that. If I am wearing only one layer it is my base layer. Any kind of woven fabric I find less breathable than my light base layers. I have fair skin, and rather than use gallons of sunscreen i wear long sleeves in all weather, and even hiking in Hawaii I`ve found a light polyester knit base layer works pretty darn well, while that same shirt under a poncho like Roger’s is what i wear hiking in 50 degree rain.

Best of luck, and keep experimenting!

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul McLaughlin]

And to return to the original poster`s question, I would lean to fleece or pile. When the humidity is really high is when the tremendous breathability of fleece or pile reigns supreme. Synthetic insulations are great but the hard shell fabrics cannot approach the breathability of fleece. Now it may be that stuff like the Nano Air can compete here, i have no exerience of that.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Paul,

Thanks for the suggestions.

Lifa polypro is my goto base layer.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Michael K,

Lot of advice and ideas here.

Have you come up with a strategy you think might work for you?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Rob P]

Daryl,

The Brynje super thermo mesh is 100% polypro…I think I remember an older thread where someone had a mesh shirt on with a t shirt over it…was that you?  If so, was that mesh polypro or nylon?

Also, the Brynje mesh come in vests, t-shirts and long sleeves…don’t know if that would work better for you or not.  The also have a micro mesh with smaller holes which is apparently for warmer weather.  Would polypro mesh be worth a shot for you?  I know you sweat a lot.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Rob,

Thanks for the fishnet info.

I’ve tried both and they do help some.  The white fishnet photo below is polypro Brynje XL and weighs 3.5 ounces.  The black is nylon WiggiesXXL  and weighs 8.5 ounces. Brynje is difficult to take off when wet.

The only thing that really works so far for me however is:

If I’m wet but done exerting (i.e. at camp) and can stay dry I change into dry clothes.

If I’m wet and still exerting and still cold I change into a closed cell foam jacket of some sort.  I also have a foam cell foam hat.   Photos below show a couple of the foam cell foam jackets.

Blue one is a Stearns float coat.  Weighs 2 lbs but doubles as a sleeping pad and rain coat so some of that weight is offset.

White one is a Wiggies.  Has a fiberfill liner with thin foam over that and nylon over that.  Weighs 27 ounces.

I also have various other home made foam coats, and a much too heavy store bought neoprene jacket that I wear working in the yard.  None of my home made coats has matched my “go to” Stearns jacket so far.   It is a life saver.  Have even slept in it.

[Greg Pehrson]

Daryl, how do you pack the float coat? Is it rolled up (like a CCF pad) or lashed to the outside of your pack?  Did you size up the Stearns coat or wear your true size? Thanks!

[Daryl and Daryl]

Greg,

I attached two side release buckles to the top corners of the coat’s collar.  They attach to buckles on the top corners of my pack frame.  Easily attached and removed but secure.  I sometimes add a 2″ buckled strap around coat and waist if terrain, wind or mood dictate.

Coat is bulky.  Doesn’t roll well.  Would fill some packs.

I usually wear a medium (snug but doable) or a large (comfortable) in regular (non float) coats or jackets.  This float coat is a men’s large and is comfortable.  Easy to get off and on.  Also have a woman’s medium. Had to cut sleeves off to make it fit. Not much choice, however.  These coats are decades old.  I find them in 2nd hand shops.  Don’t think they are available new in this style.

Foam coat is somewhat stiff.  Doesn’t cling like, say, a lightweight raincoat.  Hangs more like the heavy raincoats that construction workers wear.  This allows air to circulate between me and the coat if I unzip it.  So I can stay warm while wearing it but still dry off after stopping at camp for the night.  I’ve even slept in it.  Don’t have to worry about my upper half sleeping pad slipping away…..I’m wearing it.

 

 

[Greg Pehrson]

Very interesting—thanks Daryl!

[AlpineIce]

In the temperatures you mentioned, any sort of insulating layer worn underneath any WP/B shell would cook me alive.  A better way to tackle this would be to don a synthetic insulated layer over you hiking layers for rest stops, photos, etc. then remove it when you’re active again.  Again, or these temps, I’d probably go with a synthetic insulation better suited for static thermal management, versus active insulation, such as any of the Nano-Air pieces, Proton LT/Atom LT. I’d probably go for either Patagonia’s Micro Puff or Macro Puff.  It just depends on your body type: whether your run warm or struggle to keep it.

[Ignas M]

@alpineice, I generally run very, very warm, especially when moving. That’s why during actual hiking I either wore my thin wool base layer under my rain jacket, or, in light drizzle, just the base layer with no shell. But found I also can get cold once I’ve gotten cold/wet and stop moving. I ordered both an Atom and Proton LT and my first impression was exactly what you’re saying – they’re thin. They seem too thin to insulate effectively just standing around. My go-to for years has been my Montbell Alpine Light Down jacket, but it just got too damp during this last trip. I’ll check out the Micro/macro puffs you recommended.

[Author]

Posts