Synthetic jacket for cold/wet backpacking

[Ignas M]

Hi everyone.

Short summary of my question:

For multi-day backpacking trips in continuous precipitation/high humidity with temperatures of 0-10 C (32-50 F), what’s your insulating layer/jacket of choice? This is specifically for being in camp/rest breaks for taking pictures. Intended to be worn under an outer shell. 

I’m debating between the Patagonia Nano Air, Arcteryx Atom LT and Atom AR. Open to other suggestions or ideas.

Back story:

First time post, just joined today after an “eye opening” experience during a 5 day backpacking trip in Kootenay national park in Canada.

I’m an experienced backpacker, but the vast majority of my multi-day trips have been in either dry conditions or snow, not rain.

My normal setup is a Smartwool 150 base layer, an Arcteryx Fortrez fleece, a lightweight down jacket and a Marmot Minimalist rain jacket. During this past trip, it rained non-stop for four days. During the hiking phase, I only wore my base layer and the rain jacket with the pit zips open, but sweat through my base layer. At camp, the dampness and rain rendered the down useless, and I was cold to the point of shivering at times. The fleece wasn’t warm enough to warm me back up. Admittedly, I made the mistake of not immediately swapping out the sweaty, wet base layer for a dry one.

When hiking, I get warm super easily, and feel comfortable in just my base layer down to 0 degrees C while moving. I only ever need the insulating layers in camp or during stops. I do a lot of photography, so usually put on an insulating layer and walk around slowly taking pictures.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Roger Caffin]

Under those difficult conditions, either a 300-weight fleece or two 200-wt ones. With dry thermals under.

Cheers

[David P]

Michael – I use a Torrid Apex Jacket w hood  from Enlightened Equipment for standing/camp insulation at those temps. If precipitating with rain shell. I’ve been very happy with it. My large weighs 8 oz. only thing is it takes them a few weeks to deliver as every piece is custom built, you get to choose color scheme etc. it was worth the wait to me… it’s also integral to my sleep system

I actually also have the Patagonia Nano Air, I use this as active/traveling insulation when temps are below 25F. It is a very nice piece of gear too. It might work for what you describe in camp also. It is less warm and quite “breathable” so may be better if it’s very humid and you don’t want to overheat even stainding. I think my large weighs 14 oz which is why I prefer bringing the the torrid in most cases above 20-25 degrees. Below that I bring both, the Nano for travel and the Torrid for standing.

i am like you in that I travel hot and wear a lightweight thermal to about 45-50F i add a light wind shirt while active down to about 25-30F. Below that while active I’ll add a Patagonia Capilene Thermal Weight with the wind shirt over or just the Nano Air over base layer. I cross country ski and “Hill Bound” in sub zero F weather so I think it is acclimation as well as genetics.

+1 to an extra, dry base layer.  If cold I’ll bring two. The lightweight ones I use weigh 3.5 oz so bringing two gives me a little modularity in the base to stack them up if needed instead of one heavier piece.

Sorry cant comment on the Arcteryx pieces.

[S Long]

I use the Montbell Thermawrap UL.

[dirtbag]

Everyone is different. I Love Love Love my Patagonia NanoAir Light hybrid .. I have the hoody and non hoody and they get well used. I tend to run warm, so these are perfect to keep my core comfortable yet breath and vent nicely.  Base layer under it depending on how cold the temps.. Silkweight, midweight or heavy weight.. I also use my Arcteryx vest for added warmth when sitting around, if needed.  Houdini wind shirt usually comes along also and I will throw that on if breezy and cold..

[dirtbag]

The vest is Arcteryx Atom LT..

New for this year I grabbed the Arteryx Zeta SL jacket, which I will use as my outter shell for rain, snow and wind.. I used the pants all last year , fall and winter and I loved them. Still debating if the Houdini comes or stays now..

[John Mc]

Go to Nunatakusa.com

You can customize a climashield apex jacket.  You can pick the synthetic weight from three sizes, zipper length, sleeve length, back length, etc.

I own one and it’s fantastic.  I ordered a long back so when I bend over I don’t get chilled from bare skin.  I ordered extra long sleeves with elastic ends so when it’s cold I can extend the sleeves over my hands.

You can’t go wrong.  You can even order the insulation for the back and chest be a heavier weight then the arms…..hood or hoodless.  Check them out.

 

 

[Brad Rogers]

100wt fleece pullover is what I’d use in those conditions.

[Ignas M]

First of all, thank you so much to all of you for replying and for your excellent suggestions.

Quite a bit of jacket and gear recommendations to ponder and research.

Brad, like I mentioned, I was wearing the Fortrez fleece hoody, which is already thicker than 100wt. According to the website it uses “Polartec® Power Stretch® with Hardface® Technology—88% polyester, 12% elastane, 230 g/m². ” I was freezing and shivering. Granted, I think part of that was due to the wet wool base layer that I had sweat through and didn’t change out, but it just didn’t cut it. I needed something thicker and that would still insulate decently when damp.

I also took my buddy’s advice, who said he kept his damp layers on to let his body heat them up and dry them out in camp. Didn’t work for me, I just got really cold.

Similarly, he recommended I sleep with my damp garments inside my sleeping bag to dry them out overnight. Same issue – the inside of my down sleeping bag got damp, the clothes didn’t dry due to the moisture, and I was cold for 3-4 hours and had difficulty sleeping as a result. Not trying that again in humid, rainy conditions.

While moving, I don’t really need any mid-layer in those conditions, so I’m not concerned about breathability. Unless it’s well below freezing, if it’s dry, I generate tons of heat and feel good in just my base layer when hiking fast. This gear would be purely for rest/food stops and the 2-3 hours in camp between arriving at the destination and heading to sleep. For cold/dry weather, my down jacket works great. I just need to figure out what to do in the wet.

[Roger Caffin]

@Michael
I wonder whether you had eaten enough? Being short on food can produce similar symptoms, even if you don’t really feel hungry – which can happen after a hard day.

I also wonder whether your mat was adequate for the conditions. Heat loss to the ground can be insidious, and large.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

I think that your mistake was in the use of a heavy woollen base layer [ which you say wasn’t changed ] and a fleece that was marginal for the conditions, but Roger makes a valid point, wet and cold can lead to a higher than usual energy expenditure

[Edward John M]

I did not answer the question in your first post

My go-to parka for decades has been the Patagonia DAS sized as for its original intention. I have tried lighter weight garments but none of them work well in the situation described in the first post

[Bruce Tolley]

Just based on the description of weather above 32 degree F and constant mentions of baselayer and sleeping bag being damp, I would pose that the problem is managing layers and moisture.  While snow camping in the Sierra Nevada, during the day while moving when the temps are 20 to 32 degrees F I can get my with a wool baselayer, a Patagonia R1 fleece and sometimes a windshirt.  At night I can dry out a pair of gloves and perhaps a pair of socks inside my down bag. Anything more than that risks dampening my down bag. Like Edward above, I wear a Patagonia Das Parka around camp to dry out my midlayer and base layer.

[Roger Caffin]

The other half of the equation is how you dress while you are moving. Since damp clothing can be bad or worse, a prime aim should be to never get at all sweaty – never. Travel COOL. The idea is to have relatively dry clothing when you stop, not soaking wet sweaty stuff.

At the risk of something or other, I will add that getting sweaty in cold weather is very common, especially among novices. Really experienced walkers avoid this trap. To be sure, keep the cold rain off you: for that a poncho is excellent. Keep the cold wind from cutting right through you too, but keep up the ventilation.

“But I’m cold” I hear. Well, walk faster, and eat high energy foods.
“But I am too tired to walk fast.” Then stop and camp, and eat.
“But I am meant to do N km today.” Spare me the details; just adapt to the weather conditions and your own abilities.
There is of course always the Darwin option.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Then there is the MYTH that you can dry your sweaty damp clothing in your sleeping bag or quilt. Well, I am sure the moisture content of the clothing will fall, but where does the water go?

It goes into the quilt or sleeping bag and in cold weather it does NOT come out. Instead the moisture condenses inside the down or synthetic layer, and kills its insulating ability. There is what is known as the ‘condensation line’: that level inside the down layer where the water condenses and accumulates.

It is a stupid idea which can kill you.

In some cases where the ambient temperature falls overnight to just below freezing, you can find a thin layer of frost or ice crystals on the surface of your bag/quilt. That was your insensible perspiration. If you sleep sweaty, that condensation will be significant, which is why we sometimes use a Vapour Barrier Liner at temperatures below (say) -20 C.

If you end up with wet socks and boots because of rain or wet snow, put them into a SEALED bag at the foot of your quilt. They won’t dry overnight, but they will be warm enough to wear in the morning. We do this with our ski boots. Beats the h**l out of trying to get your feet into frozen boots in the morning!

Cheers

[AK Granola]

Wool. In those conditions I wear wool. I would definitely change any wet gear once in my tent. But generally if everything gets wet, wool keeps me warmer than anything else. Besides base layer and fleece pullover, I use a poly balaclava, which is somewhat warm when wet, and dries super fast.

On most of my backpacking trips here in AK, I end up in cool wet conditions, often the 40s overnight, up to the 50s during the day. If my wet clothes are not dry by morning (they never are), I put them back on to hike in, and always keep that tent gear in their dry sack for the next night, or for emergency if I’m hiking out that day. It feels awful to put them on again, but I’ve learned to just do it and get moving as fast as possible. As I move, the wool baselayer warms up. And yes high calorie fat snacks. On one trip I had brought a brick of cheddar cheese; you would not believe how three teenagers can look like a pack of wolves when devouring cheese.

[AK Granola]

In response to the stopping and taking pictures, I probably wouldn’t add a layer, unless it was going to take more than 10 minutes or so. Longer I’d add a fleece. My pullover of choice is a no name brand, that someone gave me 10 years ago. I keep looking for a lightweight one, but none are as warm without being bulky.

My main woolies are REI, bought 7-8 or so years ago, still going strong. It was hard to leave them behind when I hiked on the JMT this summer, because I always bring them! But I didn’t for that one, and definitely didn’t need them. No wonder the Californians are cold up here.

[Ross Bleakney]

I spend a lot of time in similar conditions. If I’m out for the day, I carry a good fleece jacket, along with a nice fuzzy hat, and rain jacket (if needed). I’m often skiing and the conditions are such that I actually use a windshirt for rain protection. It can get drenched with all of the wet snow, but it keeps the fleece dry. I typically rest where it is a bit colder (since I am skiing up past the snow line). At that point, I abandon the windshirt, and put on a nice down jacket (over the dry fleece). Worse case scenario, the down jacket is drenched on the way down, but that is only a short period.

I recently bought a Nano-Air, as one reviewer (who I respect) called it a “fleece-killer”. I disagree. It may have wounded fleece, but it hasn’t killed it. It just lacks the breathability of fleece, even though it seems like a nice puffy jacket.

The big drawback to fleece is weight. For backpacking, I use an Oware synthetic pullover. This has great warmth for the weight. Many of the jackets mentioned seem similar. This can handle a bit of moisture (from outside and in) and yet still remain fairly warm. Any fleece offering the same level of warmth would weigh a lot more (and offer nothing in the way of drizzle protection).

I think the big problem you had was moisture management. It is a bit like hydration. I’ve been on hikes where people got dehydrated. None of them drank water at the beginning of the hike. (I usually down a liter or so in the morning, before I put my boots on). Likewise, once you are damp, it is hard to get dry. If you were damp from inside, it is quite possible you were sweating too much. Perhaps this is unavoidable; but maybe you could have slowed down just a touch, and thus not sweat so much. I’ll admit, I often hike with guys that are not in great shape (and my pack is very light) but I find that the only time I sweat a lot is if I’m moving fast in warm weather. It is not natural to slow down when it is raining, but if your shirt is drenched when you get to camp, maybe you need a better rain jacket, or you are pushing yourself too hard.

Without a doubt, a brute force approach would have solved the problem. Thicker fleece or a synthetic puffy and you would be fine. But the most weight effective approach might simply involve slowing down a bit. Your choice depends on whether that is possible (e. g. you may be climbing, and thus carrying a big load).

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

The trouble with wool, in my experience, is that once it gets wet it deforms (sagging jumpers) and takes 12 hours to dry. Fleece material does not deform and takes as little as 10 minutes to dry (with some body heat input).

This reflects the underlying fibre physics.

Cheers

[David Hartley]

Great topic.  Like others – I hike in similar conditions a lot – spring and fall in NY’s Adirondacks.

For this kind of weather my usual layers are a very thin wool-synthetic blend t-shirt, a long-sleeve nylon button shirt, 100-weight fleece pullover, and a 60 gm/m^2 primaloft jacket (or vest), In steady cold rain the first two layers (under a rain coat with pit-zips open) are usually sufficient while on the move – although if is is near freezing or windy I will start out with the fleece in place of the nylon shirt. Its not a perfect system – the fleece and the nylon shirt are not compatible with each other – but I like having the nylon shirt along for wind/bugs/sun protection.

And yes the base layers get damp from perspiration when hiking in cold rainy conditions when wearing rain coat/pants (although I am lucky that I am not a huge sweater). Once at camp I ditch the nylon shirt and add one or both insulation layers, and rain pants (if they are not already on) – and my base layers usually get mostly dry while I do camp chores and eat. If things have gotten to the point where I am chilled when I stop moving and adding insulation doesn’t help I eat a hot meal right away, change into dry sleeping clothes, and get in my sleeping bag to warm up.  Under the described conditions – days of rain and humidity – I try and avoid wearing damp or wet clothes in a down sleeping bag. There will be enough of a fight to keep a down bag dry and lofty as it is – after a couple of days of this kind of weather the bag can look pretty pitiful at night when pulled out of its stuff-sack.

I can’t help wondering if lack of calories during the day wasn’t the issue in your case. In cold rainy weather its easy to just keep moving and not eat – but every time I do that I regret it. The common thread for me, when I have been chilled after adding insulation once stopped, has been not eating enough while on the move. And when that has happened eating a hot meal with a hot drink, followed by dry sleeping clothes and a dry sleeping bag has cured the problem.

Dry sleeping clothes are another key – I don’t always bring dedicated sleeping clothes, but when I suspect that the weather will be like what you experienced I bring them.

[Daryl and Daryl]

” a prime aim should be to never get at all sweaty – never. Travel COOL. The idea is to have relatively dry clothing when you stop, not soaking wet sweaty stuff.”

Good advice if you can do it. Can you do this?  Most can. Some can’t.  I can’t.  Wish I could.  I’ll be soaking wet as long as I’m moving/exerting.

So for me the only solution is changing to dry clothing when I get to camp and/or wearing clothing made from closed cell foam.

Each person has to figure out a system that works for them, in my opinion.

[JCH]

My experience aligns with Roger’s suggestions.  Light synthetic baselayer and whatever weight fleece is appropriate for the temps.  And hike cool!  That is perhaps the most important. I hiked the Devil’s Path in PA in 40 deg wearing nothing but a LS cap2 top and still got sweaty…the important thing was, I dried off in about 5 min when I stopped.

[Gary Dunckel]

For the past couple of years I’ve worn a TNF Thermoball hoody while snowshoeing. It’s a very interesting type of insulation, in that it’s composed of synthetic Primaloft Silver (I think) which is cut into small “balls” (which requires lots of quilting to keep the little pieces in place). It is warm to at least 30* F, and lower if I wear a WP/B shell or wind shirt over it. It dries pretty quickly if it gets damp. My large size weighs 14.7 ounces.

[Jerry Adams]

2.5 oz Apex vest.  Good down to freezing with WPB shell if I’m stationary.  Good down to 20 F if I’m moving.  5 ounces.

I have a fleece vest for around the house.  10 ounces.  Maybe half as warm as the Apex vest.  I don’t use fleece when backpacking because it’s too heavy.  Maybe the fleece handles wet a little better than Apex?  I use fleece hat and gloves because the area of fabric is less so the weight doesn’t matter and they are subject to more wetness.

I agree with the hike cool concept even if not a total solution.  There’s a lot of marketing for breathable clothing, but it’s much more important to avoid heating up because then your sweating will hugely increase overwhelming any breathability.

For below freezing I have a 5 ounce down vest, and an 8 ounce down vest – choose one depending on how cold it’ll be.  I also use the Apex vest for hiking – it’ll survive wetness where the down would lose almost all of its warmth, so it’s sort of a survivability situation.

 

[Paul S]

I have a saying: “Sometimes you have to stay a little cold in order to stay warm.” And what I mean by that is theat in cold weather you must keep cool, otherwise you’ll sweat, and your clothing will get damp, and then it will be difficult to stay warm because you’ll loose heat from evaporative cooling. So, don’t let yourself get sweaty when you’re on the move in cold weather. Stay a little chilled, when you are on the move, in order to prevent sweating.

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