Synthetic jacket for cold/wet backpacking

yeah, exactly

and sometimes I’ll start getting warm but delay shedding layers and I’ll start getting sweaty

zippers are good.  Taking hat off is good because I can put it in pocket.  Taking a shirt or jacket off requires taking my pack off

The new Patagonia Macro Puff will be a jacket worth looking at IMO…

Stay cool.
Can I do this?
Yes.

In detail then. Down to about +5 C my wife & I will be wearing a single layer of Taslan fabric – windshirts as described at
https://backpackinglight.com/myog_shell_top/

Below +5 C, it depends. If the sun is shining, we will still be wearing that single layer down to 0 C. If not, we might wear a light thermal layer under the windshirt for 10 – 15 minutes, until we warm up. Then we take it off and put it away before it gets sweaty. We do NOT wait until we are sweating!

Fabrics? Good synthetic fleece dries fast; wool takes many hours, and cotton is deadly. Sure, wool tops are nice at home, and indeed we have some, but never out walking. One time, in the snow, we were caught by some really bad weather: wind and RAIN. I had on a 300- weight fleece, which promptly got rather wet. No choice: I stopped, stripped the fleece off, wrung it out and put it back on, with a light waterproof layer over it. Then we went fast. In about 10 minutes I was warming up: the fleece was drying. You can NOT do this with wool.

At the risk of being preachy: many people travel with far too much clothing on. A fear perhaps of getting cold? With experience you soon learn that once you start moving, you WILL warm up.

If it is raining, then we use our ponchos over our head, shoulders and pack like a very big umbrella, NOT as an enclosing jacket. Good air circulation, to carry away any water vapour, is crucial. In the long run, you stay warmer and even drier this way.

Escaping from the waves of marketing spin which try to sell you a waterproof jacket as the complete solution takes some experience and even determination. But once you have done it a few times, and found that it does work, it gets easier. (And cheaper too.)

</soapbox>
Cheers

Down to about -30F (-35C) I hike with a synthetic midweight zip t-neck, 100wt polartec zip t-neck fleece, and heavy, stretch microfiber jacket. That’s it for upper torso.

Most people wear far too much clothing.

I also wear wool sparingly (hands and legs mostly, depending), and never wool on my torso. Drying wool is a pain… synthetics are where it’s at for most uses, though they can take a real beating around a fire.

I love wool whipcord pants with a midweight synthetic long underwear bottom under them for serious cold.

The one thing I dislike about 100% synthetic is the stink.  Even polygiene anti-microbial treatment wears out and becomes ineffective after a while.

The one thing I dislike about 100% synthetic is the stink.

I hear people say this all the time, but I’ve never found synthetics hold stink any differently than thin wool uppers. But we’re all individuals for sure…

That’s not the synthetic stinking by itself. That’s a smell absorbed from YOU! YOU are the source of the stink.

Well, so what? If it is a hot day, jump in a creek with your clothing on and thrash around a bit. Dry off as you walk. It won’t remove all the smell, but then, you will be adding fresh smell as you go anyhow.

Cheers

Jerry,

That Apex vest/shell combo is pretty light.

What’s your approximate skin out/no water/no food/ spring/fall weight for a back pack trip these days?

Thank you again to everyone for the responses.

This definitely has been an extremely informative and productive discussion, leaving the realm of gear and delving into moisture and temperature management strategies, which I think is a very important aspect of what went wrong with my trip.

@rcaffin, I think I ate just about what I normally eat for this kind of trip/difficulty/pack weight. I certainly didn’t feel hungry. I had an inflatable mat with an R value of 3, which has kept me warm down to -20 C, so I don’t think it was the mat in this case.

Regarding your advice to travel cool, I just can’t. I get warm/sweaty EXTREMELY easily. This includes sitting in an office and when the thermostat reaches a bit over 22C/72F, I start sweating. So hiking, I’m ALWAYS sweating, usually quite profusely. In my usual dry hiking locations, this is never an issue, and it dries extremely quickly, but this time it definitely was. I sweat a lot less in sub-freezing temperatures, and then it’s also not an issue. But cold and CONSISTENTLY WET (not snow) was definitely an issue for me, and, I’ll admit, despite years of backpacking experience, I AM a novice in those conditions, so I’m sure there is lots to learn about moisture management. My friend carried a Kestrel weather logger, and the relative humidity was 100% the entire duration of our 5 day trek.

At the least, I know I should change into a dry layer upon stopping. During the actual backpacking, with the rain jacket on, I was sweating a lot, even with the pit vents open. We weren’t walking fast. I just generate tons of heat during any physical activity, even slow walking uphill. During periods of drizzle, I took the rain jacket off and this allowed me to cool more effectively, but of course didn’t help a ton with the staying dry part.

Thank you very much for the sleeping bag drying tips. I had never tried that before, since I’ve always been able to dry my clothes before going to bed or just have a change of clothes. This trip, when I put a bunch of damp clothes into my sleeping bag, it definitely didn’t work well for me-  the sleeping bag got damp, I got cold, nothing dried.

@moondog55, I actually had an extremely thin wool base layer (Smartwool NTS 150, basically a thin hiking shirt), not a thick one. I do think I would have been much better off changing to my dry base layer immediately upon stopping at camp, as I did this the other nights and felt much better and warmer.

@btolley, no question, I completely agree with you, a large part of the problem was my inexperience with managing moisture on a trip with non-stop rain like this. I had never experienced anything this continuously cold and wet before. Most of my experience is in the Sierra Nevada as well, where it’s incredibly dry and staying warm has never been an issue for me. I think the sleeping bag technique works in the Sierra Nevada for the same reason – it’s like 15% relative humidity. In Canada it was at or near 100% the whole time. Whole different ball game.

@granolagirlak, Alaska was the only other place, other than this trip, that I had experienced continuous cold, wet conditions. I went in May for a week, but that was a kayaking trip with way more gear, we had a canopy with a small propane heating stove inside, had many dry layers to change into, etc. I was wearing wool as my base layer throughout this trip, I think if I had to do it over again, I would have put on my dry wool layer from my dry sack, and brought a synthetic jacket instead of a down one.

@rossbleakney, thanks for the info about the fleece weight and what you think of the Nano Air. Since I wouldn’t be wearing it during my activity, I was more curious how well it insulates when just standing doing nothing. Do you find it warm?

I think you’re absolutely right about the moisture management, I just don’t know how I could improve it. I’m in (self described) good shape, I’m very active during the week and hike frequently. That said, I also like photography so while my hiking gear is very light, I usually carry 10-15 lbs of photo equipment, which usually leads to pack weights of 40-50 lbs. I’m around 6’1, 200 lbs myself, so this isn’t a huge deal for me, but it does mean that going up a steep incline, even slowly, I tend to sweat, especially given my natural propensity to sweat extremely easily.

@dhartley, that primaloft jacket you speak of is what I was thinking would have been helpful, since the down jacket looked like a drowned cat at times, just a pathetic thing that had lost all its loft. And you’re absolutely right, putting the damp clothes in the bag didn’t help with its loft – like you said, after days of damp and being cramped into the dry compresison sack, the sleeping bag already looked pretty sad. Thanks so much for sharing your helpful strategies. I did carry a dry pair of underwear and base layer for sleeping in that I dedicated just for that.

My base weight must be about 12 pounds, 2 pounds for shoes, 2 pounds for other clothes

Staying cool is a goal.  At some temperature and exertion, depending on the person, you’ll sweat.  Above that, if you’re just wearing long pants and shirt, at least you won’t have many wet clothes, and they’ll dry out pretty quickly.

The point is, below that point, don’t wear extra clothes if they’re going to make you sweat.

If you’re wearing too much but don’t want to stop to take them off, you could slow down if that will keep you from sweating, like if you’re nearing the top of a hill.

Rather than stopping and then getting cold, continue going at a slow enough pace you can maintain indefinitely.

There is no universal truth, just techniques to try and see what, if anything works for you.

I just saw this:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2402452/polartec-alpha-review

I wonder if this works?

If I slow down to prevent sweating I get cold and/or I would be so slow i wouldn’t get anywhere, if I speed up I sweat. For 30 years I have been walking with damp base layers and it doesn’t matter what the climate (my walking has been limited to just under freezing to 35 celsius).

So, I walk fast, sweat freely and change into dry base layers once when I erect my tent.  For my physiology, walking is about sweat management not sweat prevention.  i respect other voices on this forum but my physiology is my physiology.  I get the dangers of walking damp but I seem to have little choice and have learnt to manage chilling with clothing choices,  nutrition, short breaks and adding insulation for when I do stop during the day.  Newer textiles such as polartec alpha make life easier for us early and freely sweating individuals.

@michael

I hear you. What we do in those conditions is to wear our Taslan windshirts (it is really quite brilliant fabric) with a poncho over the top. The poncho does three things:
Keeps the cold rain off us
Keeps the cold wind out (mostly)
Keeps a controlled warm fug inside
For poncho design see https://backpackinglight.com/myog_mntn_poncho/

Yes, the Taslan tops get wet of course, but not too wet and we stay warm inside. That way ALL our ‘warm’ clothing stays dry in our packs.

If it stops raining for a while, we throw the poncho back over our packs (a design feature, read the article) and let the Taslan dry off – which it does very quickly.

@Sean: I think the base layer is part of your problem: it cannot help but get hot and sweaty. It’s the wrong clothing. Perhaps you should scrap the ‘base layer’ and try something different? A loose plain fabric.

Cheers

@ Roger.

I have tried every type of textile as a base layer. I simply sweat freely when i walk. It doesn’t help when  18% of my skin surface is covered by a pack.

It is not a problem of feeling hot either, i sweat quite freely when i exercise despite not feeling hot. With a life spent participating in endurance exercise and some time in the tropics my body sweats as soon as my core temperature starts to rise.

I could walk so slowly as to not sweat but it rules out walking up hills with a pack on or walking so slowly that it defeats the purpose.

Michael,

“Regarding your advice to travel cool, I just can’t”

I hear you bro.  Welcome to my world.

I can hike cool or cold, even very cold, but it won’t stop the sweat.   I’ve tested the theory dozens of times over the last 60 years.  Works for most others.  Works for my wife.  Works for my hiking partner Eric………but it doesn’t work for me and it sounds like it doesn’t work for you.

Did a simple retest of the technique today.  Walked a couple hours with a friend on level ground.  No pack.  Wore a thin short sleeve poly top with  a light non waterproof windbreaker over it.  Was uncomfortably cool to start. Stayed uncomfortably cool during two hour walk.  Got cooler as the walk continued and I sweated.  When I got home I was wet from crotch up.  Had to change into dry clothes to stay warm in the house.

Wore a thin short sleeve poly top with a light non waterproof windbreaker over it.
Was this poly top body-hugging or loose and flappy?
Our Taslan tops are very loose and flappy.

Cheers

Roger, I respect your experience and opinion but  you may have to accept that the propensity to sweat is a physiological function that varies amongst individuals and may not be universally solved by the application of loose taslan.

What works for you may not work for everyone.

Hi Sean

Oh, I do accept that. Just trying to help – a bit.
Have you thought of migrating to somewhere very cold? :)

Cheers

Jerry,

Thanks for the 12 lb weight estimate.

My pack weight has been creeping up and I’m on a pack diet.  Your number gives me a target.

Michael,

I apologize for the thread drift.    Asked the question of Jerry without thinking about the topic we were on.

Roger,

Loose weave, stretchy poly top was form fitting.  Weighed less than 5 ounces.

Wind breaker was very breathable, loose and flappy.

In the interest of science I’ll eliminate the poly top and wear only my loosest, flappy windbreaker and see what happens when I go for a walk.

my pack weight has crept up a bit.  Latest tent is a little bigger for more comfort in rain.  Sleeping bag a little heavier and warmer.  I started taking a 3 ounce cup.

but then I replaced my camera, dumb phone, GPS, and MP3 player with a smart phone which just about cancels the extra weight

Hi Daryl

It would be interesting to hear how that goes.
You could try an old nylon shirt for that matter.

Cheers

Roger,

OK, I just returned from a 30 minute walk.  Eliminating the form fitting poly top made a difference.  Cooler  and less sweating.  Increased my awareness of how these factors interact.  Gave me food for thought.   Thanks.

Felt like I was losing a lot of heat.  Was uncomfortably cool/cold for 30 minutes.  If increased exertion (hill, pack, terrain, etc.) had increased my sweating I  would have put some more clothing under the windbreaker for warmth..  I did a similar experiment a few years ago with only fishnet under the windbreaker.  Hiked cool/cold for several hours up hill with backpack.  Lost a lot of body heat.  Took me several hours in camp to regain it with dry clothes, hot food, etc.

Conditions/Observations

Wearing extra large taslan, non waterproof windbreaker.  Loose and flappy.  I normally wear a large.  Nothing under windbreaker.  No hat.  No pack.

60 degrees F, 75% humidity, dark, light wind (5-10mph)

Felt uncomfortably cool throughout walk.  Air moving around a lot inside windbreaker.

Head and upper body was wet with sweat but not dripping.

Windbreaker was damp but dried quickly in house when I got back.

Pants remained dry.

Felt uncomfortably cool throughout walk.
No hat, no pack. Would you have been as cool with hat and pack?
The ‘uncomfortably’ bit is where it gets interesting. I don’t know what that means for you. If your Head and upper body was wet with sweat but not dripping, were you really ‘cold’? Or was it just a cold surface skin with a warm core?

What I am getting at is that sometimes it is more matter of what you are expecting or used to, rather than anything serious. When winter hits here (it can happen suddenly), we spend the first week or so feeling cold. By the end of the winter we are acclimatised and wearing less clothing at the same ambient temperature. Then summer hits, and we have to reverse all that! Note that we do not have air conditioning in our house, so we are used to a wide range of ambient.

Air moving around a lot inside windbreaker.
In hot weather – thank heavens for that!
But as I said above, we are used to that.

Cheers

“Have you thought of migrating to somewhere very cold? :)”

Global warming….is there anywhere left?

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