Snow camping tents, arrrgh! What to get

I have a question about these tents.  If you are not dealing with strong wind, or heavy snow, why not something like this?  https://www.rei.com/product/779210/sierra-designs-zeta-2-tent

I have one and it works great, has a big vestibule, easy to setup and not that heavy for the room.  I’ve even camped and had 6-8 inches of snow fall and it did just fine.   I think I paid $99 when I bought it.

The copper spur looks almost the same, with a little less room in the vestibules.  Is it the solid walls instead of mesh?  I suppose it is a little lighter but several hundred dollars more expensive.

Here is an REI tent with less mess for $99

https://www.rei.com/product/110837/rei-co-op-passage-2-tent?CAWELAID=120217890003721439&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=30320809120&CATCI=pla-423706939561&cm_mmc=PLA_Google|404_143615|1108370001|none|a9d8e30e-d1a0-4569-b51f-caafb72c7839|pla-423706939561&lsft=cm_mmc:PLA_Google_LIA|404_143615|1108370001|none|a9d8e30e-d1a0-4569-b51f-caafb72c7839&kclid=a9d8e30e-d1a0-4569-b51f-caafb72c7839&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI88zQwo333gIVk7fACh3afAp7EAQYAiABEgLZSfD_BwE

The Zeta would be cold with all the mesh and heavy for the size, if windy, spindrift to deal with.  The Passage is like the SD Halfmoon tent I was in with the high winds, 2′ of snow o/n.  Not a very good option for when things go south.

Some of our old group bailed from a Mt. Shasta trip because of very heavy snowfall, 6″/hour stuff, we didn’t want to have our vehicles snow bound.

Duane

Both REI tents are what we call pop-ups. They are probably fine in mild conditions: no wind, little or no rain, and no more than 2″ of snow. I am not sure I would call them ‘roomy’, but that’s OK.

They are also cheap, which tells you something about them. They are touted as being suitable for camping without the fly, which tells you some more. But if your conditions match the above, that’s fine.

Cheers

Roger I was curious what makes the copper spur different.  It appears to be basically the same design.  Why do you mention rain?  My zeta 2 has a pretty large vesibule and it is water proof.  Are you comparing these two the tunnel tents?  In which case I under stand.  I was trying to understand in terms of the one Duane went with .

The BA Copper Spur Expedition mentioned earlier is different from the standard build Copper Spur.

It’s a more robust design than the standard Copper Spur, using a mostly solid inner, heavier, thicker poles and a beefier hub design, big guyline loops to incorporate “dead man” style staking, more guylines, which are made out of dyneema, etc.

If I were truly considering it for winter camping, I would get the 3-person model for 2 people.  The 2-person would seem cramped once there’s a lot of winter gear involved.

BA has even beefier (and heavier) tents for full-on mountaineering, which are the Battle Mountain 2 and 3, and the Shield 2.  The Shield 2 looks like a copy of the Bibler style tents but it has an add-on front vestibule sold separately.

Both tents feature a mesh inner held up by long poles. Then the fly is thrown over and fastened down.

Now try pitching one of those in pouring rain. The groundsheet will start to fill up with water. Such fun.
Now try pitching one of those in a high wind. The inner tent will flap around everywhere, and the fly will NOT behave itself as you try to get it over the poles and secured. There’s a video on YouTube of some kid trying to pitch such a tent in bad weather – I am not sure he ever succeeded.

Mind you, in fine weather in the forest, they are probably OK.The Battle Mountain series are still just pop-ups and the same criticisms apply – rain and wind. BA list both the Battle Mountain and the Shield as THREE-season tents. They are NOT four-season tents by any means.

Cheers

Roger,

The Big Agnes web page is full of contradictions about its intended use.

https://www.bigagnes.com/Battle-Mountain-2

At the top, it says, “Three+ Season, Free Standing, Mountaineering Shelters”

Right below that, it says, “Battle Mountain tents are spacious four season, lightweight mountaineering tents that offer full protection in the harshest of backcountry conditions.”

Further down, under “Specs + Sizing” it says, “Intended Use: Mountaineering”

It’s not like BA is unique making mountaineering tents that use a pole clips and fly design.  My Black Diamond StormTrak 2 was exactly the same. I took it up to My Olympus and Mt Rainier in 2011.  It worked fine.

The Mountain Hardwear Trango 2 is the same.  It’s as you say, a “Pop-up” tent that where the inner clips to the poles and then the fly is put over it.

Tents that use a design where poles go into sleeves on the inner and then the fly is put on top:

Eureka K-2, Marmot Thor, North Face Mountain 25

They still suffer from the limitation that you set up the inner and then put on the fly.

And yet, I see lots of mountaineering photos with these tents.  *shrug*

And yet, I see lots of mountaineering photos with these tents. *shrug*
I suspect that the reason is that there no American-made alternatives.

Cheers

@ Duane. So you considered and rejected as an option the add on vestibule for your BD?

I snow camp with folks who love their Nallo 2’s. Seems like it would be big enough for you and your dog and, although Roger would knock it for having only 2 poles, seems wind worthy enough for camping below tree line.

I remembered to check out BD tents again after getting my BA.  A vestibule only added a pound, but I’m getting tired of the internal poles.  If I take it out in October and it rains, gonna get misted which happened a six years ago maybe when Tioga Pass was closed temporarily while I was in the backcountry.  I may be able to adjust gear (stoves) to make up for the added two lbs. of the BA tent.

I’ve only had a few epic trips with my three season tents.  Like other situations, have to figure out how to work them out.

Duane

None of those are “Pop-Ups” as Roger describes

These are Geodomes, the Mountain 25 also works without the fly if you need quick shelter from the wind.

But mountaineering tents are different beast to backpacking tents; with plenty of overlap tho. Speed of erection and a narrow footprint are often the main criteria followed by wind resistance. Ability to handle snow load is important but it seems to be lower on the priority for most climbers.

I just don’t see the OPs priority of weight and cost meeting in any realistic winter tent, well not given my own winter experiences anyway.

I originally wanted something around 3lbs. which was around what my BD weighs, not wanting to gain weight, but found nothing that appealed to me.  The Copper Spur is configured like I wanted or could deal with.  Anymore, just by myself I only hike/snowshoe a few miles to set up camp.  Being retired now, just don’t have the energy for much longer trips with a winter pack.  Just no break on weight if I take all cold winter gear.  5F bag, shovel, ‘shoes, second pad, dog pad.

Duane

Hi Edward

I am confused. The only Mountain 25 I can find is by TNF. Is that what you mean? I was not aware it was under discussion.
EDIT: ah, I see.

I would agree that it is more robust than a typical 2.5 pole pop-up, and headed in the geodome direction. But it is rather cramped inside, isn’t it? You have to sleep head-to-toe, and the vestibule (assuming you have it) is barely enough for cooking. And the poles are NOT threaded into the fly: a damning fault in my book. Once again, you would have to get the inner tent upright, without any guys, before you could throw the fly over the top. That makes it less than a ‘mountain’ tent in my book (never mind the marketing spin).

My definitions:
Pop-up: two long thin poles arching lengthwise over a narrow tent, to which the inner is clipped, and then the fly is thrown over the top, staked and guyed. All sorts of variations are possible, including 1/2 pole extras.
Geodome: approximately square, with at least 4 poles, threaded into the fly (that is mandatory).
Mountain tent: The poles are short and are threaded into the fly. The tent can be pitched in pouring rain without getting any water onto the groundsheet. Ideally, one-man pitching in bad weather (eg windstorm) is a requirement. It is almost a requirement that there be an inner tent, but cunning solutions are possible (which will stop spindrift).
Three-season: spring, summer and autumn.

Yes, I realise that there very few American-branded tents which qualify as ‘mountain tents’. That is a deliberate marketing decision by the big companies: they prefer to focus on the mass-market sector because that is where the bulk of their sales are. You just have to ignore their marketing spin and look at the specs themselves.

My 2c: others will disagree I am sure. It’s a free world.
Cheers

Post above in a suggestion by Jeff Williams

@ Duane

I am not sure there is a tent that is three pounds, 4 season, two person, and has a big vesitbule for cooking.

The Hilleberg Akto has a very big vestibule and might be big enough for you and your dog.  it is often for sale used here and on other forums.

MSR had a single wall two person mountaineering tent that you see for sale occasionally that was sub 4 pounds.  I think it was called the Dragonfly??? According to reports on the web, it had the same problem with misting during rain that yo have probably encountered with your BD.

When I am expecting realitively good weather for snow camping, I take my MLD Duomid. If snow fall or wind is forecast and I do not want to dig a snow shelter, I take my Akto or my (now discontinued) 2P Big Agnes String Ridge 4 Season tent which sometimes comes up on eBay.

If an Akto is a good contender, so I would think, would be a Tarptent Scarp 1.

(BTW, not at all similar to a florless Squall…)

It now has a 30D 3000mm rated flt, a 9mm main pole and if expecting more than a foot or so of snow you can add the X poles.

The new inner will allow a good size dog inside it but you can pull it back for cooking or if you want the dog in the vestibule.

http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com/2015/11/lightweight-gear-in-winter.html

Note : franco@tarptent

a thread from 2009 (that was the 1st version of the Scarp)

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/18634/#comments

Bruce, Franco, thank you.  Seems the Atko is too low, some reviews talked about condensation if I recall.  Never looked at the single TT.  The vertical sides made me think they weren’t what I wanted.  The new tent is still in it’s bag and box.

None of the three season tents did much for me, was just trying to set a goal to shoot for.

Duane

Just remembered, had a heck of a time with the foot end pole on my Squall when temps were cold and if my hands got cold, not enough strength to deal with it.  Can’t recall, maybe only when setting up, fabric was tight and I had a real hard time getting the pole inserted or if I had the fabric inside out, hard to undo.

Duane

yes it was clear that the Squall did not work for you , however it was aimed at the LW 3 season use brigade and it was 15 years ago.

There are no similarities whatsoever between the two shelters.

The BA Copper Spur Expedition mentioned earlier is different from the standard build Copper Spur.

It’s a more robust design…

If I were truly considering it for winter camping, I would get the 3-person model for 2 people.  The 2-person would seem cramped once there’s a lot of winter gear involved.

I just picked up an Expedition in the sales to check out, since I’m not going to take on more extreme winter conditions for at least a few years until I have more experience;  and the basic Copper Spur “HV” design (pre-bent poles for steeper walls) is excellent.     I agree that the 2-person is cramped for 2 people,  I have a regular UL3 for 3-season use with 2 people.   However, I opted for the 2-person Expedition, since I think it should take snow loads better – essentially the same amount of pole support, but narrower profile – and I hope the TWO large vestibules for gear should give enough room.    From my limited experience, the combination of a large vestibule with an obsessively dry sleep area works well on snow.

However, I do have concerns about length on the 2-person (not touching the wall with head/feet), since I’m 6’2″.    I will report back when I have set it up, I will set up my regular UL3 alongside the Expedition UL2 for a direct comparison.

I think Edward John’s suggestions are correct for winter. Good hoop shape for wind and the occasional heavy wet snowfall. Roger Caffin would approve of these tents, methinks.

These tents are nearly freestanding but a great vestibule. You can dig out the vestibule area, sit in the tent on your sleeping pad and have your feet in the vestibule cook area. Been there, done that in a very heavy snow storm. Just remember to vent well and keep cook/boil times short.

I’ve had great winter/snow camping experiences with a Black Diamond Firstlight tent, including multi-day snow storms in exposed locations at elevation.

Freestanding, 48″ x 82″ footprint, 42″ internal height, single wall, internal poles, end door. 3 lb. 5 oz, which includes stuff sacks, 6 groundhog clone stakes, and 1/8″ paracord. About $370.

The BD HiLight is very similar with a side door. 3 lb. 2 oz, About $400.

I happen to prefer internal poles, because I can throw the tent on the ground in a storm, crawl in, and assemble it from inside, out of the weather.

My cooking consists of just boiling water, so I use an MSR Windburner outside the tent by the door even in the worst weather without a vestibule. But if you want the vestibule for the Firstlight it adds 1 lb. 6 oz and costs about $140. Total then would be 4 lbs. 11 oz and about $510.

I did a couple of hacks to reduce the weight. Dropped $140 for Fibraplex CF poles, which cut 6.1 oz. Replaced the 1/8″ paracord with 1.8 mm glow wire cords, which cut 1.7 oz. So my FirstLight weighs 2 lbs. 13.3 oz. for $510.

Some of the group I bped with had the Firstlight, didn’t like it due to getting snow in when entering or exiting.  I had no issues like they did.  Can’t see the advantage of internal poles on the BD.

Duane

“Can’t see the advantage of internal poles on the BD”.

That idea was first implemented by Todd Bibler in his I Tent.

He was a climber so he wanted a shelter that was like a bivvy but with sit up headroom.

So , small pack size, small footprint and a quick  out of the weather entry option , fully protected during  the set up.

The other advantage is that the outside is more aerodynamic because there are no protruding sleeves for the wind to catch on.

The above does not really apply to the typical backpacker.

Again , think of the design as a large bivvy.

BTW, I find them very easy to set up ( I used to seam seal them for a local shop) but other struggle. So as usual, it depends.

I was using internal poles on a 7′ square dome back in the 60s. Pegs out the 4 corners and climb inside. Others would stand around admiring the gruntings and heavings of a distressed octopus as I tried to seat the poles. Somewhere (!) I have an old B&W photo of Sue standing there with a very bemused look on her face as I struggled.

To be sure, **I** was out of the weather, but Sue et al had to stand around for quite some time, waiting.

Aerodynamics of external poles? Bah humbug. Never seen any problems.

Cheers