Shelters and Tarps in 10D silnylon?

The updated Exped Mira 1 and 2 HL’s both have 10D sil/PU flys. Nice green color too. Not available in North America though.

https://www.exxpozed.com/exped-mira-i-hl

Thanks. I added them in. But I cannot tell from Exped’s website whether they are coated with sil mixed with PU or if it is sil one side, PU the other side.

AFAIK, the Splitwing is unique in being the only trekking pole supported shelter made with sil/sil 10D silnylon. (The One and The Two from GG, like the LG Khufu HB, use 10D coated with a sil/pu mix). I guess you could include the Nordisk Voss 5 flat tarp in here, too.

I wonder what users of the Splitwing and the Portal think of the 10D silnylon that Slingfin uses? It has a crinkly, crispy hand unlike most other silnylons.

Slingfin will also introduce a 9.5 x 10 flat tarp in 10/10 this spring.

That’s a nice size for people who might sometimes want to use it for 2 people but since it’s 10D it will be light enough for 1. Still, a rather large footprint.

I’ve always been tempted by the Nordisk Voss 5, but the dimensions are just a tad too tight. It really needs to be 30+cm longer. 9′ x 7/5′ is a nice size for one.

The MSR Carbon Reflex is 7D.

One negative thing about the Nordisk Voss 5 (6′ 6″ X 8′ 2″) is the fact that when it’s set up long wise for A frame configuration the seams are perpendicular to the ridgeline. Definitely not ideal in terms of the way it pitches nor does it provide near the tear strength on the 2 most important A frame tieouts. I have a discontinued Brooks Range Mini Guide Tarp like that. Measures 6.5′ X 8.75′ and is made with a rare 20D silnylon woodland camo pattern that the US Army used until late 80’s. Blends in very well even though the pic below makes it look lighter colored than what it really is. Yet with the seams 90 degrees opposite the ridgeline the A frame pitch suffers a little. But by having 16 perimeter tieouts and 1 in the center there are a multitude of pitches you can do with the tarp. Weighs 10 oz. I bought it on clearance years ago for $80 and it would take a lot for me to let it go.

Nice looking tarp.

The difference in tear strength between the warp and weft might not be as great as you would think.
For example, the 20D silnylon sold by ExtremTextil claims to have tested exactly the same on the warp and the weft (4.5 kg). There is a slight difference in tensile strength (33kg along the warp, 27.5 along the weft) but the numbers are so high at least when new that the difference is not meaningful in the field.

The silnylons that ET sells are only double coated on each side. The Voss 5 is made with fabric that is triple coated on each side. Triple coating seems to be standard for the high quality Far Eastern (Korean, I think) silnylons used by Scandanavian companies like Hilleberg and Nordisk. Maybe the additional coating helps, too.

Yeah, there are a few errors on that list that I made in haste. Thanks for pointing out that the Carbon Reflex is 7D.

Nordisk makes a Lofoten ULW (7D) and a Telemark LW (10D). There is no Lofoten LW.

I bet there are other errors, too.

I did a poor job of explaining earlier why I very much prefer the ridgeline to also be the main seam adjoining the 2 panels (A frame). To begin with that way the ridge tieouts can be sewn onto a solid seam with multi folded layers instead of just a folded hem. And secondly tarps seem to pitch far more taut (A frame) when the ridgeline IS the main seam running lengthwise. However that produces a lot more waste when building flat tarps 7′ wide down to about 5′ wide, such as the Nordisk Voss 5 for example. If you look at the pic of my camo tarp above you can see the seam going up vertical from the yellow staked line. With that technique the manufacturer simply has to bond 2 full width panels together thereby requiring only 13 feet of material and zero waste. Whereas if the tarp was made to where the main seam adjoining the 2 panels ran longways it would require 17.5 yards of silnylon and would produce about 15 inches of waste off each panel (for a 6.5′ X 8.75′ tarp). It’s the same reason why the the Voss 5 is made like the Brooks Range Mini Guide Tarp. It’s way more economical and much faster to simply bond 2 full panels together. Doesn’t pitch as well for an A frame though.

One of the reasons why you see so many 8.5′ X 8.5′ and 8′ X 10′ tarps… very little waste and not a lot of cutting.

Side note: That’s what I like about Yama Gear. Gen tells you the amount of in house waste produced for each product.

I think you explained it okay, I was just slow. A day of inhaling fumes from oil paint will do that to ya.

The amount of stretch is going to be different along and against the bias.

Ridge seams also allow for catenary cuts. (But tarps without cuts are easier to pitch taut in more configurations).

Yea, cat cut tarps are pretty much a one trick pony. Of course with cat cuts the A frame pitches tighter and easier and requires less material, however versatility goes out the window. It’s a tradeoff. With uberlight 7D and 10D silnylons a case can be made for cat cuts because the stretching (when wet) is more pronounced with the lightest silnylons.

As far as tarps go that may be true. But once we get into mids, it depends on design.

The octagonal mid I have in 10D silnylon doesn’t stretch at all when wet. It has very slight cat cuts on the ridgeline seams and none along the perimeter. The inherent elasticity of the 10D means that when the octagon is staked out, you get a natural curve that simulates a cat cut on the perimeter. I’ve used that shelter in pouring rain and it hasn’t needed to be re-tensioned at all. The octagonal design also makes it much easier to get an evenly tensioned taut pitch than a rectangular mid. This 10D silnylon also doesn’t absorb a lot of water, though we’ll see how that goes as the coatings degrade over time. For the time being, however, it lays to rest some of the common criticisms of silnylon.

It would be so great if high quality 10D sil/sil silnylons such as the one I used for that octagonal mid were readily available to those who make trekking pole supported shelters. Apparently, that isn’t going to happen any time soon. :-(

You can’t find 15D silnylon either, at least not in the States. 7D MTN 6.6 can be sourced at RSBTR and Rockywoods carries a 7D Sil one side and PU the other. 15D membrane (0.9 oz) silpoly is available but it’s pretty weak stuff. 20D and 30D silnylons can be had from 5 or 6 sources. No 10D or 15D silnylons to be found anywhere though.

I’ve been after RSBTR for years about getting a 15D silnylon in stock but to no avail. A quality 10D would be even better. I believe most 10D’s weigh about .9 oz/sq yd and 15D’s around 1.05 oz.

That 7D from RSBTR tested independently at a HH of 1042mm, a tear strength of 19N, and a gsm weight of 26g. That HH is probably good enough when new, but how long does that last? The tear strength is low, confirming your thoughts.

The 15D Membrane silpoly scores much better at 3800mm HH,  30N, and 33gsm. Clearly, the effects of the PU mixed into the silicone coating account for the higher HH — as well as for the lower tear strength compared to the 10D that I got from a tent manufacturer, which scores at 1409mm HH, 42N, and 30.5gsm. Since the silicone coating in that fabric (3 coats as opposed to 2) doesn’t have any PU mixed in, the HH is lower but the tear strength is nearly 50% higher than RSBTR’s Membrane 15D. I bet that the coating lasts longer, too.

With what’s available on the market today, I’d opt for the 20D silnylon from ExtremTextil, which uses pure sil/sil (2 coats) on both sides.

Jon,  Perhaps I misread you, but did not note any sourcing in the 10D silnylon you mentioned that holds its shape when wet.  I’ve tested a bundle, but have not found any ultra light nylon, sil or PU coated, that will hold its shape when subjected to wet weather, either directly or by placing the fabric next to the weather, but under a roof or deck overhang.  Roger Caffin advised that he has some early silnylon that does hold its shape, but understandably, is holding on to it.

Would  really like to obtain some of your fabric if you are OK with disclosing the source. You are welcome to PM me, though am not sure BPL will send a prompt.   Sometimes they do, but more often they don’t.  But I do check for PM’s on BPL regularly.  Please consider my request.  Thanks.

Hi Sam, that was a one off deal. I helped a Far Eastern manufacturer with interregional marketing and as a favor they gave me some of their exclusive 10D fabric. I used half to make an octagonal mid and gave the other half to a buddy who did the same. I wouldn’t be able to get any more and it wouldn’t be appropriate to disclose the identity or the contact of the company/agent. I only wish that it were more widely available, if not to the DIY crowd at least to the established manufacturers of trekking pole supported mids (LG, MLD, TT, DD, Liteway, Tipik, etc etc). Cheers, Jon

I’ve been playing with a GG Twinn for a few weeks.  10D, cat cut.  Pitches taut.  Had it in an all day rain.  Sagged after a while.  Tightened it back up and there it stayed.  Underside of the fabric was bone dry.  I was also able to make a few decent pitches using the half pyramid, modified half pyramid, lean-to and modified lean-to using side and rear ground staking, a-frame the short side.  Stretch the Cat and it disappears. Depending on terrain and conditions, I wouldn’t be afraid to take creative license and throw some origami at this tarp.

Thank you, Jon, for your response.

There have been a number of folks who have posted about experiences with silnylon much like R L’s above – “Tightened it back up and there it stayed.” – referring to silnylon that remained taut after being tightened up.  My concern is that in a heavy rain, especially at night, it is a PITA to have to get up and out to do the tightening.  If the rain is accompanied by heavy winds, as is not uncommon, it is a bigger PITA, especially after a tiring day of hiking in the wet.  These types of conditions are common in the eastern US, not quite as much in the central Rockies, and not very much in some western parts of the USA.

Add to that the different qualities of silnylon obtained at different times and from different manufacturers, and it can be a crapshoot to stay dry in a tent; thus defeating a tent’s purpose.  BPL is replete with posts of similar experiences  as mine on this point.  And I’ve tested numerous nylon and polyester tent fabrics for extended periods in plastic embroidery hoops in foul weather.  The nylons always sagged every time they were retightened, and the polyesters did not sag at all, so did not need to be retightened.

Add to that the desire to build a tent that remains taut at all times, and thus enables a free standing framework to remain stable in high winds.  In this respect, the fabric and the pole framework work together to make the structure solid and secure.

But recognize there is another view, and that non-freestanding tents depend on stakes to remain up; so will consider trying the GG Twinn and see how the 10D material performs.  There can always be cases where it takes a step backward to take a step forward.

You could try a small, symmetrical octagonal mid. It doesn’t meet your freestanding requirements but it is very stable in high winds, doesn’t require retightening in the rain, and is probably a good deal lighter than a freestanding tent. I suspect that the geometry is what obviates the need for retightening, not so much the fabric. An octagonal mid made by Xavier to the specs I provided with 20D silnylon from ET would weigh just a hair over 14 ounces. It’s probably not suitable for people over 5’10”.  For taller persons, you would need to increase the size of the octagon quite a bit to conserve the symmetrical shape and still fit the user along the diagonal, bumping up the weight. Even so, it still might be lighter than a freestanding job.

Silnylons and silpolys made with silicone coatings mixed with PU (like the 10D fabric used by GG) kind of defeat the purpose of the silicone coating IMHO. They are, however, much easier for manufacturers to work with and hence offer advantages to users because of that (such as taped seams, easier sewing, and lower prices for both the fabric and the sewing), while still retaining some of the silicone advantages.

Living here in NorCal means it’s dry eleven months a year.  If camping in the rain, I’m doing it on purpose.  So when the recent storm came thru, I was tickled pink to set up the GG Twinn out in the yard.  Ooo wow wee.  Look Look.  Rain.  That said, if I am camping in the rain, it’s with a tent.  I use tarps for sun block and increased air circulation.  Note to Sam F.  I’d ship my GG Twin to you if you’re looking to get up close and personal.  Ship it back when you’re done.  No worries.  A phone call to GG would answer if the One and Two use the same fabric as their tarps.

R L, Thanks for your kind offer.  I’m still thinking about ordering the GG Twin Tarp just to get the fabric.  I’ve had much better luck with free standing tents in foul weather because they place less stress on the stakes (or rocks), and are more roomy inside.  The challenge, though, is to make them lighter.  Best calculations indicate that 20z is about as low as possible with one oz/sq/yd fabric, and think that one oz is as low as is prudent if the tent is to withstand severe weather, which is a must based on my experience.  (Northern CAL sounds nice, but not far from Oregon, which understand can be pretty wet – strange).  Have trouble with the idea of a 10D shelter of any kind in severe weather.  The Yama Mtn Gear silpoly fabric is 20D per Yama, but weighs only 1.08 oz/sq/yd, and is bomber.  Was amazed at how strong and waterproof it is.  But it is dark in color, and can’t be dyed due to the sil coating.  Have some Dutchware 1.1oz Xenon sil/poly in “moss” green, which is no longer offered in that lighter color, and is not as bomber as the Yama.  So, more things to ponder.

Here is a tent that is all PU nylon, that is wrinkly in severe weather, but not saggy.  But weighs a bit over 2 lbs, or way more than acceptable for ‘super ultra light’ fans, but stays as dry as a bone inside in any weather I’ve encountered.

That is on a shoulder of Mt. Washington, which can get fierce.  It is dwarfed by Mt Whitney, but has had at least one death and numerous rescues in the last year.  Roger Caffin opined that the wrinkles when wet are due to poor design and/or construction, but I think they are due to the nylon fabric.

Note to Sam F.  Check your PM.

Hi Sam, it seems like every thread turns into a discussion of your tent project or my octagon. Lolz.

Yama’s designs are definitely bomber but the fabrics they use are, well, only mediocre.

If you really have to use silpoly, the 30D sil/sil silpoly from ExtremTextil blows anything that Yama uses out of the water — for barely a slight weight penalty.

Hi Jon.  I try to keep such discussions relevant, though many issues can relate to a particular tent or tarp.  Mostly, I’m looking to see what folks want in a tent, and if I’ve overlooked something.  But don’t worry if you’re feeling deja vu all over again; it’s ephemeral.

Yama is the only silpoly I could not squeeze water through, but granted there are other types of mediocracy.  That may not be on piste; but feel free to PM me about those measures.  A lot of work goes into a tent, and am always looking to benefit from other’s experience.

As for the 10D, am sticking to my guns.  By any standard I can think of, 10D simply does not compete with 20D in severe weather.  I’d expect disaster, and deserve it.  Want to compete with DCF; but with a reliable fabric.  So please, tell me more about the Yama.  As noted above, the Xenon silpoly could be a better choice.

Have been listening to the raves about Ex Tex 30D silpoly from Monte and others, the only problem being the fabric weight.  That’s a big portion of tent weight, so not going there, although have often bought from Ex Tex because their quality is worth the wait.

Sam,

Since the silpolys used by Yama have PU mixed into the coating, the water column is much higher than comparable pure sil/sil fabrics at the same denier. It’s no surprise that you can’t force water through. It’s a nice compromise fabric. Precisely why it’s also just mediocre. Henry Shires said as much before he eventually sourced an exclusive 20D pure sil/sil silpoly for use in TT’s product line. Prior to that, he was unwilling to switch. Ron Bell, even less so.

The tear strength of the 10D silnylon that I have is much higher than that of the 20D sil/PU silpolys and 10D sil/PU silnylons being discussed here. Stick to your guns if you must but remember that he who lives by the gun dies by the gun.

FYI the weight of the 30D sil/sil silpoly from ET is approximately the same as the weight of the 20D sil/sil silnylon that MLD uses.

Cheers,
Jon