Raincoat for Serious, Serious Bushwacking.

I think any DWR won’t stand the abuse. An Epic like fabric allows you to restore the repellency after a wash, which can be done in the field.

I had the same experience in Alaska this summer, after 10 days busting through willows, alder, dwarf birch, and black spruce the DWR on my Gore Tex shell was pretty much toast.

I don’t think any DWR will hold up long to that kind of abuse so if you want something you don’t have to keep re applying fresh DWR to than I would try Epic or perhaps the new Outdry.

However, if you are looking for a traditional jacket, I might look at a Gore Tex Pro shell with a 40d face fabric.

Paul I didn’t know Epic was easier to fix that way.  Can you elaborate?

Yeah I agree with both of you, DWR will wear off. Not looking for something to last forever, just what will last longer. And possibly a fabric easier to fix up with new DWR.

Maybe I should just stock up on cheap gear swap raincoats and use a new one for each major trip. I like the idea of something that last longer though.

I’ve been looking for the same thing Luke. I think what you want is something non breathable that can’t wet out. But I don’t know where you would find a good one that’s light (well under a pound) and reasonably tough.

Columbia is coming out with a rain jacket that has the wpb membrane bonded to the outside with no face fabric to wet out. I have no idea how it holds up to abuse. I’ve seen one in person and the fabric seemed burly and it weighed 12 ounces in mens medium.

I’ll watch that Columbia jacket. Do you remember what the name was? I may end up trying a non-breathable silnylon jacket. I understand Andrew Skurka’s logic of emphasizing venting over breathable fabric. The trouble is rubbing through wet brush is going to get you wet if you have lots of vents opened on the side of a jacket. So basically there is no great option for a brushwacking raincoat.

I just emailed Luke’s Ultralight to see if he has any ideas. I had thought about putting heavier non-breathable fabric in high abrasion areas and breathable fabric in other areas. But realistically I’m not sure how much that would actually help.

The Columbia jackets use OutDry Extreme.  Not sure what the release date is but definitely worth a look.

Epic fabric is hard to come by, Wild Things Windshirt uses it.  Richard N uses a thicker wind jacket jacket for heavy bush whacking, not sure the make.

I had Luke make me a custom silnylon rainjacket with pit zips and pockets – it has held up very well in difficult conditions.

Maybe a very light “wear layer” jacket over a jacket.  Sounds elaborate.  But what you’re asking for sort of doesn’t all come together (durable, breathable, waterproof, venting, etc)

The pro of a poncho is that you get decent airflow below, and coverage of your waist and pack.  If you cinch it in to avoid getting hung up too much.  I’ve hike thru many an overgrown trail and know the problem here.

I probably just wrote two things that you won’t end up doing, but that’s what comes to mind.

Heavy denier goretex pro

basically what climbers, SAR and military uses

with an awwwwwsuuum warranty

;)

How would a burly fabric on the jacket solve the issue of dwr scratching off and face fabric wetting out?

Luke, I don’t know the name of it. It is an early press model sent out so I don’t think it has an official name. The jackets aren’t even released yet. It’s blue with black lines on the seam. It has 2 hand pockets and pit zips.

.

Justin

it wont … It will prevent it from being ripped apart

and hopefully itll stay waterproof unlike many of these 2.5L or event shells

If u want unbrethable with the best pit zips ever …. OR might still make the rampart

to be blunt if yr in serious rain brethability is a joke, eventually heavy continuous rain will overwhelm the DWR

plan your clothing system on being damp

mountaineers, SAR folks, military, etc …. Theyve all dealt with this issue before …

The warranty is for failure AFTERWARDS … When yr plonking down $$$$ for a jacket it sucks when they wont warranty it … Just ask the BPLers whove been turned down by westcomb

;)

Eric, if its all gonna wet out then I’m saying save your money and don’t buy a heavy duty goretex shell, get a heavy duty non breathable shell that won’t absorb anything. Wetted out shells make you colder and they carry water weight. Now the question is if anyone makes a quality durable non breathable shell that is light but tough (not a lead weight workwear jacket).

well justin ..

let me first off say that hiking in a non breathable shell sucks …

do a simple test … take a garbage bag and make holes just big enough to fit your head and arms, use a belt to tie off the waist  … now put on a pack and hike up a steep hill (standard in the PNW coastal mountains which the OP is referring to) with a 20-30 lb pack for 1-2 hours … and thats not even a full on rain jacket, but a rain vest with breathable arms and head … hiking in a VBL, even with a few vents will get your sweating very fast at raining temps

the thing is that its rarely raining heavy all the time … even out here the rain is on and off …. heavy and light, even in “all day rain”

at those times of lesser intensity the breathability does matter

in addition certain face fabrics can provide some breathability even when the DWR mostly wears off, if you believe the propaganda

<span class=”Apple-style-span”>The DWR is not the only feature of your jacket that affects how it sheds water. As a DWR is only a very thin coating, once it has been worn out it all depends on the outer fabric, the face fabric. Porous surfaces, like meshes or the face fabric of a waterproof jacket are not flat planes, and this means that water interacts with them slightly differently to if the surface were flat and uniform. A fabric with a more open weave increases the contact angle, making a jacket shed water better. However, a more open weave allows more water in to the face fabric, which means it’ll dry slower. This is an unavoidable trade-off: the face fabric must be woven tightly enough to resist water penetration but loosely enough to shed rain once the DWR is worn out. The durability, tactility and many other factors are also influenced by the weave.</span>

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4556

Our goal was to optimize the performance of the GORE-TEX^® ePTFE waterproof/breathable membrane in the garment by creating an extremely durable face fabric that would withstand abrasion and wear. All GORE-TEX^® textiles come with a DWR (Durable Water Repellant) finish to help bead moisture and prevent it from becoming trapped in the face fabric structure (known as “wetting out”). The DWR is effective but does wear out and needs to be re-applied over time. A better, longer-lasting solution involves diligent engineering and construction of the face fabric to augment the moisture-beading capabilities of DWR.

Surface “wet out” is also accelerated by frayed or broken fibers. These broken fibers break the surface tension of water droplets – causing them to be absorbed into the fabric. Snow and ice can also attach to these fibers. Moisture accumulated on the surface of the jacket decreases breathability and amplifies the effects of evaporative and conductive heat loss, robbing heat from the user. With reduced breathability of the garments, more moisture accumulates in the clothing system, depleting the warmth of other layers and leading to further heat loss. It’s a cycle that ultimately leads to the user being cold and uncomfortable and in extreme situations can very dangerous.
<h3>How did we make it better?</h3>
In conjunction with W.L. Gore, we developed an exceptionally durable face fabric that resists fibre fraying as a further step in preventing performance-sapping “wetting out” of the face fabric. Keeping the face fabric from “wetting out” which reduces the effects of conductive and evaporative heat loss and maintains optimum breathability.

Each component of our new fabric was chosen for its contribution to the whole. This particular combination offers the greatest benefits in terms of durability and water repellence.

<span class=”Apple-style-span”>http://arcteryx.com/materials.aspx?language=EN</span&gt;

to be blunt … theres a reason why ground SAR teams and modern military use “breathable” fabrics despite their limitations

and also to be blunt .. if youre in high abrasion situations for a decent amount of time (cant just bail) … even with a non-WPB jacket you still need to plan on being damp if not wet … all it takes is one rip or tear for it to start leaking, not to mention yr getting quite damp on the inside from the condensation (hot body vapour hits nonbreathable fabric cooled by freezing rain)

;)

Rick- a poncho won’t work in the kind of brush he is talking about, it would get hung up all of the time and get shredded.

A “sacrificial” layer might work over a shell to protect the DWR on a rain shell but I am not sure how that extra layer would effect breath ability and overall performance.

The Colombia Outdry stuff seems as does the new Gore Active that doesn’t require a DWR.  The Gore is not durable enough for bushwhaking for sure but the “Outdry” might be.  Of course nobody has tested it yet.

Epic doesn’t require DWR so it won’t wear off but it is only highly water resistant and I am not sure how it would hold up to long term rain.

You ou can get soaked just waking through wet/snowy brush. I almost thought that was worse than the rain.

Wait- the muskeg and tussocks were the worst but not on a shell.

I am planning another adventure in Alaska in 2017 so I am interested in this as well and am trying to figure out what to do for a Shell.  I took a light 7.5oz GT Packlite shell last year and it did ok but I have contemplated getting a heavier, more breathable, more durable, and more fully featured shell for the trip since I hiked in the shell quite a bit due to rain, snow, and wet brush.

In this case DWR is an oxymoron. It’s not durable. Given the state of the market, there are a couple of options. A GTX jacket made from heavy material that won’t tear in thick brush. Perhaps carrying spray-on DWR?

Sierra Designs new cagoule has a unique venting design, but I doubt the material in a 6.5 ounce jacket is robust enough for your intended itinerary. Normally when you put a pack on over a rain jacket and then tighten the hip belt, you have effectively sealed the bottom of the jacket. Sierra Designs leaves the front of the jacket open and a long flap drapes over the hip belt to allow airflow. They also use venting in other spots. I don’t know how well this works, but I think we may see other companies emulate the concept if they don’t infringe on any patents that may be in force. Maybe working with someone who can design and make something similar without copying any patented designs is an option. Again, I don’t know how well these cagoule jackets breathe, but IMO Sierra Designs is approaching the problem with the right mindset — improve brathabilty with design, not fabric.

Of course there are people who hike in this Alaska environment all the time. What do they do? Probably wear GTX and just deal with being cold and wet I would guess.

I agree with Eric C.

Get a US military surplus GoreTex jacket. If used, renew the DWR using Grainger’s wash-in product. (Not that the DWR will last all that long, but it’s nice to start out with it working.)

I have a surplus gore-tex parka and really like it.  I have not hiked a lot in the rain but cutting fire wood all day it kept me dry and I was able to vent it pretty well.  It certainly is not very breathable.  Also I use it while sledding in wet snow and again stayed dry.  I do get very hot though.

The downside is it’s super heavy, I think 2.5 pounds for a medium long.

The other plus was I picked up the parka and matching pants for $40.

What about the Helly Hanson Impertech jacket?

A few options, pick your compromise as they all have serious downsides.

1. Quality Goretex or Dermizax.  With a tight face fabric you don’t need to go super heavy.  The DWR will die, but it’ll work for a while, breath a bit, and you can bring the DWR back for the next trip.  For most of us only going on occasional gnar trips this is probably the best option, as the hood designs and so forth are by far the best here.
2. Epic/PCU Level 4 windshell.  DWR lasts longer and can sorta be brought back in the field.  Issue here is that heavy wet brush (to say nothing of actual rain) will overwhelm the HH and you’ll get wet.
3. Helly Hansen Impertec.  Heavy and non-breathable, but will keep water out and last a long time.  I’d have serious reservations about trying to fab something equivalent out of sil.  For sil’s do not have a HH high enough.  A Sil/PU might get the job done.  A few years ago OR made a conventional raincoat out of 40D fabric with a thick PU coating, and their full pit to hem zips.  It has the signature crappy OR hood, but a nice baggy fit and good construction.  It works pretty well, though it will tell you how much Gtex actually breathes.  Unfortunately I can’t recall what they called the darn thing.

OR Rampart jacket.  FabricBarrier™, 2L, 100% polyester, 75D

That’s the one.  Thanks Brett.

I have the side zip Rampart rain pants.  Very durable and waterproof.

the rampart may be non breathable, but does the face fabric absorb water? Having a it not absorb any water would be the main advantage to a non breathable jacket in my mind. No cold fabric sucking heat away from you.

” the thing is that its rarely raining heavy all the time … even out here the rain is on and off …. heavy and light, even in “all day rain”

When it rains, even when it hasn’t rained for a few hours, all the brush is wet. So if you are swimming through brush all day long then you are in constant contact with extreme wetness. I guess it depends on how dense and intense the bushwacking will be.

theres a big difference between wet brush, and constant heavy rain … in the former its mostly yr contact points that get very wet, it isnt being pounded with the same pressure …. in the latter everything is soaked and constantly being pounded

regardless of whatever shell one uses … perhaps the most important thing is to have a clothing system that works when damp, and even wet and dries quickly with body heat

which means ,… you guessed it … FLEECE

also the temps make a big difference … if its right now (tonight were expecting 70mm of rain, with temps just above freezing) yr going hypothermic … if its summer and warm, then it might not even be worth wearing a rain shell

a better place to ask these questions than BPL may be the hunting/kayaking/scrambling forums dedicated to alaska/coastal BC conditions

;)