New from Tarptent

[Todd T]

Yes, thanks Henry. I look forward to the updates.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Another thanks for chiming in Henry.

It’s great to get your comments on my review of the Saddle 2. I’ve added a note at the top of my review encouraging viewers to read your perspective. Also great to hear that you have some revisions planned.

It sounds like we at least partially agree in a few areas (fabric sag, clip rust, clip ease of use). With regards to sag, extending the poles further would be a nice way to compensate for folks with adjustable poles. In my case, we were using fixed length poles so compensating for sag was a more involved task.

In a few other areas, it seems our disagreement is just differences in communication/interpretation. I interpreted the door statement on the TT website (“Interior never gets wet during entry….”) to mean that the inner would be protected from vertical rain even if the door was secured open, but I can see how it doesn’t explicitly say this. Indeed it is possible to enter/exit without securing the door, in which case the inner stays dry. So I wish there was a bit more coverage, but agree that the TT statement is true at face value.

FIXED VS VARIABLE ENDS
(Warning: Boring geeky paragraph ahead)
With the “fixed vs variable” end pitching discussion, I think we agree on how the ends work, and this is mostly a difference in perspective/interpretation/terminology. I view the corner stake outs as “not fixed” because the angle of the V is variable. There’s not always the same V angle from one pitch to the next because there is no direct line of material between these two points. I believe that you view the ends as “fixed” because once the ridgeline is constructed, then the corners do naturally pull to a single point so there isn’t any guesswork. I agree with that, but still view the ends as not fixed because if someone sets up the tent with the vestibules staked unusually (i.e. really close or really far from the body), then the lines of tension which dictate the corner positions will have the V’s quite wide or skinny. So the angle of the V depends on the staking position of the vestibules. I would prefer a direct line of material between the end corners (a flat end rather than a V shape) so that if someone does stake out the vestibules unusually, this anomaly isn’t propagated further through the pitch. If the ends were flat, the pitcher would see the vestibules are too loose/tight and would then reposition the vestibules. All of this seems (and is) pretty minor, but where I’m really going with all this, is that if the ends were flat then potentially easier pitching options would become available. In high winds, it would be possible to start the pitch by staking the 4 corners while guessing just one variable (length of the tent). Even the length of the tent is mostly fixed by the inner, so if it had flat ends, I think the Saddle 2 would be very easy to pitch by staking the 4 corners, adding the poles, and then staking out the vestibules.

CONSTRUCTION QUALITY / STITCH LENGTH
Everything I’ve ever read on stitch length has said that shorter stitching gives a stronger seam. Yes there are more punctures in the fabric, but this also spread the stress over a greater number of points. Here are some examples of respectable publications saying that shorter stitching gives a stronger seam:
http://www.daaam.info/Downloads/Pdfs/proceedings/proceedings_2012/0875_FirstRogaleatal.pdf
http://www.amefird.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Selecting-the-right-SPI-2-5-10.pdf

In that first publication, a 2mm stitch was consistently about 50% stronger than a 3mm stitch across a variety of fabric types. The second publication is by a thread manufacturer and they provide formula’s for estimating seam strength which has a 3mm seam at 35% stronger than 4mm, and a 2mm seam at 100% stronger than 4mm. If there is good evidence that this is wrong, or isn’t true for silnylon, then I’d love to read it and I’d be happy to be wrong.

In any case, a striking thing with the stitching in my Saddle is how variable the stitch length is, which is never a sign of quality. Some areas are 2.5mm, most are 3-3.5, a minority is 4mm and a few rare spots are 5mm. My SS2 was more consistent at ~3mm.

[Jeffs Eleven]

Idk… i kind of like that the ends have a ‘feel to it’ when pitching.

Its jazz, man.

I was looking at the shape of the triangles of guy line make at the ends. Its like a straight line along the end of the tent and a small triangle at the ends as they loop around the stake. I’ll never be able to explain this🙄

Idk. Its fun to me… its so variable that you can tighten it from almost anywhere.

[JCH]

… its so variable that you can tighten it from almost anywhere.

To be honest, I feel this way about every trekking pole supported tent, and every tarp, I’ve ever owned. It is absolutely true of the Duplex as well.  On sites with any kind of irregularities there are a multitude of fine adjustments that could (or must) be applied.  Often you don’t HAVE to make them, but if you are the kind of person who strives for a perfect pitch, you are going to spend some time tweaking.

Pole supported tents just get set up and plopped on the ground…no artistry required :)

 

 

[Franco Darioli]

JCH,
I feel like that too however for some tie-outs and guyline placement (direction and distance) is intuitive for other it isn’t .
And there is why we get the conflicting “very fast to pitch” and “kind of fiddly /time consuming pitch” comments.

[David Wiese]

Any idea when we’ll see the updates to the S2 like the non rusting clip, etc.? In time for black friday deals??

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

While I have already critiqued the fabric sag of my Saddle 2, an encounter with slushy snow last night took it to a level I didn’t realize was possible. Apparently slushy snow can cause huge sag because it simultaneously saturates the fabric, and applies a heavy load which really stretches it out.

Last night I set up camp and pitched my Saddle 2 taut. By 2 am it had collected an inch of slush and was obviously sagging with the fly stuck all over the inner, so I arose, brushed it off, and tightened up all the guylines by 2-3″ each (a lot). I went back to bed and woke at 7 am to find another 1-2″ of slush on the tent, causing at least that much sag again:

In fairness, all silnylon sags quite a bit in slushy conditions but I’ve never seen anything like this. I appreciate that TT’s new silnylon has a higher HH, but other silnylon used in their other models always worked for me and didn’t sag like this.

[Jeffs Eleven]

Eww.

[Mole J]

That really is the worst weather conditions for that sort of issue

But…

New/Old Fabric aside.

That tent isn’t a 4 season (snow) use model? (as per Tarptent’s spec and just from looking at the flatness of the roof panels)

To my mind, for the seams to not sag, it should have very taut, significantly longer guys from the apex of the poles, and also long guys out from the pitchlok ends  – this would pull all the long seams taut in 2 directions and help mitigate sag.

Tarptent seem to supply shorter than optimum guys for some reason.  Or none at the pitchlok in this case? OK in easy conditions, but for real weather they need modifying.

This is an issue with the Stratospire and Notch, which we own,(as well as a Scarp and Moment) and I’ve pretty much eliminated the overnight sag by using longer guys pegged tight from the four apices. And pitching everything else drum tight as possible(and pitching the SS2 higher than recommended too to allow better airflow – the inner apex bungees need lengthening to make this work).  A tweak before bed time is usually all that’s needed.

Though I haven’t pitched in slushy snow! ;)

 

 

 

 

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

The StratoSpire has shockcord on many of the guyouts (at least around the base), so these help to absorb fabric sag. The Saddle could have this, but doesn’t (to save weight I assume). Adding shockcord would be a workable option, but a fabric switch would be better IMO.

I agree the Saddle isn’t marketed as a winter tent (like the StratoSpire is). I wasn’t trying to use it in the “winter” – snow just caught up with us on the very last day of our summer long thru-hike in the Canadian Rockies :)

[Brad P]

But, I do think that qualifies as winter weather, regardless of what the calendar says. I’m not saying there aren’t issues.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Agreed it’s winter weather. My point is just that (1) conditions like this can be encountered pretty much anytime of year and (2) other silnylon’s handle this better, so perhaps the Saddle could be improved.

In the photo below I had a night of slushy snow in May on the PCT with my StratoSpire 2 and didn’t notice any sag. So I much prefer the other TT fabric. I know the other fabric has a lower HH but I’ve used mine extensively in the rainy PNW and always been pleased with it’s waterproofness.

 

[David Wiese]

Henry,

Can you tell us which other tent models are currently using the same lighter fabric as the Saddle 2?

[Jeffs Eleven]

I have a Scarp2 and never had a problem either. Luckily for me, i guess, my Saddle is my summer tent.

[David Wiese]

Just an FYI-

I asked Henry and he says the current TT models using the same lighter weight material as the Saddle 2 are the Notch and the Cloudburst 3.

[Ryan Smith]

I had an SMD Refuge back in the day which also suffered mightily with about an inch of heavy snow & slush. That bad?  – I dunno. Either way, I wish more cottage makers would get behind the coated poly fabrics and avoid this sag problem altogether. RBTR has proven great poly fabrics can exist.

[John Vance]

Dang, I was leaning towards a Notch but that sag is excessive.  I spend most of my time outdoors in the fringe seasons when snow is inevitable and find myself less willing to deal with extra fiddle factor – I just want stuff that plain works.

Waking up to a collapsed tent and wetted out bag or having to re-tension during the night isn’t what I am looking for.  That appears to be too much sag to correct with shock-cord.  Any new Notch owners out there that can share wet snow experience?

[Todd T]

Any new Notch owners out there that can share wet snow experience?

I’ve got both a Notch and a Rainbow and haven’t noticed any substantial difference in how they stretch. They’re very different structures, of course, so maybe I wouldn’t notice. I haven’t had a good cold wet experience yet. Cold dry hasn’t been that bad.  As with the Rainbow, my last act before crawling in bed is always a quick tightening of all the lines.

[Rachel P]

Dang, I was leaning towards a Notch but that sag is excessive.  I spend most of my time outdoors in the fringe seasons when snow is inevitable and find myself less willing to deal with extra fiddle factor – I just want stuff that plain works.

Waking up to a collapsed tent and wetted out bag or having to re-tension during the night isn’t what I am looking for.  That appears to be too much sag to correct with shock-cord.  Any new Notch owners out there that can share wet snow experience?

Tarptent doesn’t recommend the Notch for 4 seasons — why not get something like the Scarp 1 or Stratospire 1 if you are camping a lot during fringe seasons?

[Christoph Blank]

I also wanted to get a Notch for the shoulder seasons, but that picture makes me hesitate.
It’s specified as capable of light snow, which means 3+ seasons for me and during this time snow is usually wet… so that would be a problem.

I’m not sure how alternatives behave under these circumstances.

[Rachel P]

Ah yes, they do mention snow in the FAQ for the Notch but they don’t list it under the 4 season shelters. I wonder if the smaller size of the Notch sheds snow better than the Saddle? The only pic I can find online of the Notch in snow looks like it’s in more dry and powdery conditions.

[Mole J]

Interesting.

My Notch was only bought in March 2017.

It definitely has the same outer fabric as our older Stratospire 2. And as my Partner’s Moment ( also 2017).

A quick look, but I can’t see anything on the Tarptent website about different canopy fabrics?

I bought my Notch after borrowing a friend’s. If it had been made of a different fabric I may have been disappointed.

If fabric for a model has changed, ( for good or ill), and performance is different from previous models , then some clarity/transparency from Tarptent would be useful to consumers.

E.g. floor material on the new Moment is now Pu. Not sil. Probably an improvement. Seamgrip was supplied. But no mention of this on the website.

[David Wiese]

Agreed that customers should know if a tent model goes through a major change, such as a different fabric.

[Henry Shires / Tarptent]

Missed this thread until now.  A couple of comments:

1. Dan’s pitch is just grossly off. Clearly he has lost all ridgeline tension. That is a function of fabric stretch but also pitch not getting adjusted in response to wet conditions. Boost trekking poles and tighten the apex guylines and all is fine.
2. We have used a variety of silicone fabrics over time. The general goal in recent years and been to increase the pressure rating and the fly fabrics are in flux but headed much higher on pressure rating.  To address Mole J’s comment, we do NOT use PU floors. That floor is Sil but for reasons I don’t quite understand the DWR coating on it makes it accept Seamgrip better than silicone.

-H

[Mole J]

Henry

That’s interesting.  I always understood that nothing but silicone based sealant bonds satisfactorarily  to silnylon, so that’s why I assumed it must be a sil outside/p.u. inside type fabric, which is quite common these days. The seamgrip certainly sticks well.

 

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