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Moderation policy – psychic powers


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  • #3597777
    Bruce Tolley
    BPL Member

    @btolley

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    + 1 to what Katt and JCH say above.

    BTW the severely drifted navigation thread plus this whole thread has me thinking I should download the George Clooney, Ewan MCGregor, Jeff Bridges movie this weekend. “The Men Who Stare at Goats.”

    #3597778
    matthew k
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    I can’t remember the last time I deleted a thread outside of a duplicate thread in Gearswap. I have been known to lock threads. I did that the other day in another thread started drifting and getting unpleasant.

    #3597779
    rubmybelly!
    BPL Member

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    “I didn’t say I was concerned about continuity, I’m concerned about my posts getting deleted for no apparent reason.”

    Ah. Now we get to the real reason you started this thread, which is a bit different than the discussion you laid out in your OP.

    I agree with the sentiment that posts/threads getting deleted for no apparent reason kinda sucks. Or even for an apparent reason, for that matter. I think it’s generally Rog who deletes stuff, Matthew seems to just lock stuff down.

    #3597781
    Jim C
    BPL Member

    @jimothy

    Locale: Georgia, USA

    When a thread drifts, I find it helpful to imagine myself leaving my own body, floating high above the forum, and then I can find my way back.

    #3597782
    Ralph Burgess
    BPL Member

    @ralphbge

    Ah. Now we get to the real reason you started this thread, which is a bit different than the discussion you laid out in your OP.

    Doug, I said explicitly in my OP that this is why I was starting this thread.  See the end of the first paragraph.

    #3597783
    Ralph Burgess
    BPL Member

    @ralphbge

    How many more people are going to chip in with “just ignore him”?   The purpose of this forum is discussion – shouldn’t each person be free to decide whether they want to participate in a discussion?  Anyone is always free to ignore and not participate.  If on a given day I choose to ignore Justin, that’s up to me;  likewise you are always free to ignore my posts.

    Obviously my personal opinion is that a discussion of psychic powers is likely to derail a serious thread on navigation.   But I’m not seeking to stop Justin expressing himself.  Again, the purpose of this forum is discussion.   What I’m asking the mods for is clarification on the appropriate place for a discussion of psychic powers.  Then people can choose to participate or ignore the topic as they choose.

    What I object to is for mods to allow a discussion to proceed, then delete a whole lot of posts later without explanation.   So, once again, is a full and frank discussion of psychic powers okay in the Arkansas thread;  or in future threads about navigation and the serious issues surrounding people getting lost in the wilderness?

    #3597784
    rubmybelly!
    BPL Member

    @sleeping

    Locale: The Cascades

    Ralph, you started your post with:  I’d like to get a clear ruling from the moderators about whether this is an appropriate area of discussion for a serious thread about how people get lost in the wilderness. 

    So this is what I thought your main area of contention was. True, near the end of the post you do mention not wanting to waste your time if your posts are going to get deleted, but you still finish with: So, moderators, please could you clarify board policy – are we having a debate on psychic powers in the thread about a hiker getting lost in Arkansas?

    But, really, I’m just quibbling. Doesn’t really matter, we’re in agreement about the frustration created by posts getting deleted, often without any rhyme or reason offered.

    #3597793
    matthew k
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    Is a full and frank discussion of psychic powers appropriate for the Arkansas thread?

    No.

    Is some thread drift tolerated?

    Yes.

    What is the dividing line between the two?

    Thats tough and it’s a judgement call depending on who is drifting, how old the post is and so forth. It gets complicated when a couple people have drifted a little and then someone really drifts heavily… Then the moderator gets criticized for playing favorites and things get ugly. Other times the moderator is at work for eight hours and there’s been a huge discussion/argument and if you start editing or deleting it gets really weird because responses don’t make sense without context.

    I suspect none of this is a satisfying answer for you, Ralph. It isn’t for me either.

    #3597797
    Ralph Burgess
    BPL Member

    @ralphbge

    The Wikipedia article gives a decent objective account of “remote viewing”.  From the second paragraph:

    There is no scientific evidence that remote viewing exists.

    From the BPL rule that Matthew quoted above:

    Don’t gossip, defame, lie, make unsubstantiated claims, engage in libel or slander, or question motives. Don’t speculate, troll, or suggest or propagate rumors.

    Anyway, thanks, I guess.   At least you have explained that the moderation policy is pretty much that there is no moderation policy!   Obviously I’m not going to participate on the basis that it’s okay for Justin to start a discussion, but it may not be okay to continue it, and that there’s no assurance that anything I contribute won’t be deleted.  I guess the numerous recommendations to ignore – to treat Justin as a troll and not feed him – are the winner.

    If remote viewing comes up again in a serious thread, if I feel inclined to respond at all it will be solely to note that term “remote viewing” was a disingenuous rebranding of extrasensory perception or clairvoyance, similar to the rebranding of creationism as “intelligent design”, designed to make it sound like something people should take seriously.  I think it’s worth clarifying that he’s talking about literal magic – psychic powers – rather than a remote camera that allows us to look at baby eagles in their nest.

    Obviously my opinion is that discussions of magic don’t belong in serious threads on BPL – especially when magic is advocated as a serious strategy for something as important as safe navigation – but it’s not my opinion that matters.

    #3597802
    Ralph Burgess
    BPL Member

    @ralphbge

    The Men Who Stare at Goats.

    Thanks for the reminder Bruce – a very funny movie.   What some people don’t know is that it’s a fictionalized version of true events, originally written by Jon Ronson, a British investigative journalist who specializes in fringe beliefs and controversy.  I can also recommend several of Ronson’s books that are available in audiobook form, read by the author in a unique style that comes across as deadpan yet genuinely curious and open-minded.

    In addition to the book behind the film The Men Who Stare At Goats, I can recommend The Psychopath TestThem: Adventures With Extremists, and Lost At Sea.

    https://www.audible.com/search?keywords=jon+ronson

     

     

    #3597813
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    “I personally like to follow the scientific approach to navigation, however, when I find someone’s posts to be bizarre, I just IGNORE THEM.”

    People die everyday around the world because they believed some bizarre idea to be sound advice .

     

    #3597818
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    Most helpful out for the mods,

    Reminder: moderation issues will not be discussed publicly in the forums, and posts/threads about moderation (including “free the prisoner!” threads) are subject to deletion or closure.

    It is all so ridiculous.

    ”Obviously my opinion is that discussions of magic don’t belong in serious threads on BPL – especially when magic is advocated as a serious strategy for something as important as safe navigation – but it’s not my opinion that matters.” +1

    #3597827
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    Do we want a community, here and at large, that cannot tolerate someone like Justin? That is what is boils down to imo. I don’t .

    #3597831
    matthew k
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    For the record, I deleted a thread today. It was started by Justin, in Chaff.

    I realized the error and sent Justin an invitation to repost the thread along with the text from the thread.

    I thought I should be transparent about my actions given my statement above that I couldn’t remember the last time I had deleted a thread…

    Justin, I’m sorry I deleted that thread.

    #3597834
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    I think the real problem is that many of you folks have with me, is not just my “kooky” beliefs or the like, but that I can easily out debate many of you, simply by using holistic, internally consistent logic and often times actual, funny humor. That, and I challenge some core belief systems and long held assumptions/beliefs about reality. That must really get under your nerves.

    In case you didn’t notice, I actually have run experiments about such things, here (and other places), actually putting my “kooky” beliefs to the test.  And guess what, when other people adhered to the parameters of the testing, definite, far above chance, hits were made about not only the Target, but the actual larger process too.

    The terms small minded, closed minded, and like come to mind O’ Fellow Internet Warriors.

    Btw, you want to talk about real Censure.  One of my entire threads has been erased. I’ll share one in the next post, that I posted in Chaff a little while ago.

    #3597835
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    Apparently the authorities here have been getting a lot of complaints about me of late. I’m not going to share exactly what has been private messaged to me, but just quickly and briefly sum it up as 3 strikes and I’m out (and out meaning that my future posts will have to go through a screening process before being posted).

    “Bases are loaded, it’s the 9th inning, and 2 strikes for Justin Bambino Trollster.  The Trollster team is down 3.  Can he hit a home run and save the game?”

    Apparently the very egregious behavior of mine is found here:
    https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/missing-hiker-in-arkansas/

    Note, I did not start becoming sarcastic and flippant in tone, until people started to overly focus on me personally, basically tell me to shut up, insinuating I was delusional (“magic” thinking etc),and the like. I mostly remained impersonal in reply, except for a little choice sarcastic toned humor (Ken, I have joined the Dark Side fully!).

    This is what I wrote one of the Moderators after being given the 2nd strike (1st was for Franco and his MYOG thread, which I can sort of understand):
    “So when my experiences, beliefs, character, etc are made fun of, impugned, as well as I’m essentially told to shut up (because my experiences and perceptions differ than theirs), I just have to take it and not defend myself?

    Do you think I would be as sarcastic as I”m being if I was being treated with respect and civility and if people were sticking to impersonally discussing the information at hand and not me personally?
    Moderation does not mean cow towing to majority mob rule, but being as objective and fair as one can be.

    The problem with group social dynamics is that invariably cliques develop, and some people become more ”popular” and other people less ”popular”, not necessarily by merit of character or the like, but by largely unconscious processes.

    As someone who was bullied from K through 12, I am VERY aware that just because a ”majority” of loud mouthed, squeaky wheel types decide to act in a certain way or has a certain attitude towards an individual, does not mean it’s right. I’ve had my fill of bullying in this life, and I will NOT put up with it.”

    I mentioned on another thread a little while ago, a little old, very unusually perceptive Greek lady, many years ago, once asked “Why you take so much sh!te from people?” and then emphatically and immediately followed up with “Don’t take so much sh!t from people!”.

    This is me following her advice.  Now, I know that many of you don’t particularly care for me, and I will never win any popularity contests here, but if you have some objectivity and concern with principles and ideals like fairness, justice, and the like, then I would encourage you to speak up as well, because right now, only the intolerant, whiny little snow flake types are speaking up and biasing the whole process.
    And since I’m not likely to be cow towed into submission by threats and use of fear and force, my likely destiny is eventual booting.

    If for nothing else, save the humor!  This can be such a serious and dry place sometimes. Humor and light heartedness is an endangered species here.

    But more seriously, this is a somewhat serious issue beyond my own self concern. This is the gestapo thought control police getting their way and trying to stamp out perceptions, opinions, beliefs that are different than theirs.  Because they are intolerant and have a deep need for control.

    In particular I’m thinking of someone on that thread, he is a high powered businessman, quite well to do type. The type use to having and getting his own way via excess money and position/authority over others. The kind of guy with an immense ego, who thinks to himself, “I’m going to beat hiking speed records” because deep down, I’m actually very insecure and need ego boosting beyond the norm.
    There are far too many of these types already in control of too much in the world as it is (a big part of why this world is as screwed up as it is). They lack empathy, conscience, scruples, and mostly or only care about power, prestige, image, and control.

    #3597836
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    And this was my last message to the Moderation Team:

    “Ok. I can see your points–I’m a little irked and venting right now. YOU are not the one being silenced and controlled and after being put down, belittled, and minimized by others. Hope you can understand that.

    Anyways, I said I’ll play by the rules of the game. In actuality, I’m probably going to be leaving BPL permanently after I share some more projects. I literally have been putting up with this hypocrisy off and on for the last 7 to 8 years of having people say whatever they like to me and getting away with it, but when I defend myself of late, I’m immediately shut up, censured, edited off, etc and I just don’t have any more patience and tolerance left for it.” 

     

    It is the height of irony that Ralph started this thread and complained about censure, when all along he’s been reporting posts, complaining to authority, and I never once reported any of his overly personal oriented posts.

    Because you know, I’m a grown arsed man and prefer to deal mano y mano with people if I have disagreements with them.  I only ever reported one post in the 7 to 8 years I’ve been here, and that was recently (not Ralph), and only because this person has shown an extremely attached, unhealthy obsession towards me since I’ve been here.  And frankly, I’m just done and over with it.

    A number of people have messaged me privately noting his odd and obsessive behavior towards me–it’s not just in my head.  So yeah, I’ll be reporting the shiznit out of him when necessary, until I leave.

     

    #3597837
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    ^^^^ I agree with the second to last post of Justin’s.

    Edited because he wrote anther one.

    #3597839
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    Ralph, a very, very simple and brief question. If there was nothing to remote viewing whatsoever, then why did the US military have such programs running for nearly 18 years in a row?  That’s a whole lot of funding, review and continuity for something that has no merit whatsoever.

    We’re not taking about a religious group, we’re talking about the hard headed, uber pragmatic, overly grounded and down to earth US military.

    Seriously, answer that in a holistically logical, internally consistent way.  Citing movies won’t be enough, just as a head’s up.

    “Ah, Bob, we have yet another red alert in the BS-BS sector. Belief system crash imminent, abort, abort,  shut down, shut down!”  (Sirens blaring) “Kooky Crisps!  Kooky Crisps! Kooky Crisps!”   (Pressure release valves opening, then closing)

    “Bob, I know I’ve said it before, but good lord man, that was another close one.  Much closer than last time.  We need to get this Justin W. guy out of here before he causes a meltdown for real next time.”

    ; )  ; )

     

    #3597842
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

     “That’s a whole lot of funding, review and continuity for something that has no merit whatsoever.”

    Were they just defrauding the tax payers the whole time?  And what about all the people involved in those programs as actual remote viewers who have since come out and said that yeah, based on their long time repeat experience with it, there was something to it?

    Just more delusional kooks like myself?  Never mind, that many of them had no beliefs in the nonphysical before they got recruited to be trained in the programs.

    This might be a convenient time to start practicing the ignoring advice given to you by others.  An easy ego out.  ; )

    While I am most definitely not a “troll” in core intentions and motivations, consider yourself expertly trolled and in the very best way.  Simple, holistic, internally consistent logic. No more potent trolling power than truth, logic, and facts themselves.

    Just remember, you started this.

     

     

    #3597851
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    Just like with the other thread, again on this thread, I’ve seen people imply or insinuate that I was advocating using intuition for navigational purposes., as if predominantly or even solely.

    For literally the 3rd time, I‘m re stating my actual position as already outlined:  (Sigh…)

    “But in case it wasn’t clear, I am not recommending this to others. A good compass and map should be something one is carrying around and knows how to use if they are in such areas.  However, if one still gets lost despite all “good practices” or the like, then nice to know that such potential exists if you train, practice, and hone same (as I believe almost all can do, if there is just a little open mindedness to try and practice).” 


    Please do not put either words or concepts into my mouth.
      I do not know how to make any of this any clearer to you folks.

    I mean, I  literally spelled it out, letter by letter for all of you.  Could it get any clearer than that?

    #3597852
    Dena Kelley
    BPL Member

    @eagleriverdee

    Locale: Eagle River, Alaska

    “When a thread drifts, I find it helpful to imagine myself leaving my own body, floating high above the forum, and then I can find my way back.”

    That post made me laugh, hard.

    And then I successfully managed to navigate with my mouse wheelie-thing past the bulk of both Ralph and Justin’s long-winded diatribes.

    Ralph, you lost the high ground on this issue when you insisted on engaging Justin repeatedly. It’s hard to take you seriously on wanting moderation when you’re basically egging it on yourself. This seems a lot more like you’re irritated that posts of your own were deleted by a mod and you feel Justin is getting unfair leeway and so you want him punished because you think you were.

    Personally I detest over-moderation. I think we’re all adults and ought to be able to control ourselves as such. I think this forum becomes less when people are run off or banned because a couple people don’t like them. I miss some of the people who have been run off and banned. Even if they were cranky or kooky. They did add to the forum in measurable ways on many occasions, and I think the forum is less rich and diverse without them.

    #3597853
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    ^^^ Dena, David…. maybe Alaska is a better fit for me than California.

    #3597854
    Justin W
    Spectator

    @arcturusbearv3-0

    Frankly, I found Davids’ (and to a moderately lesser extent Denas’) posts and tone rather patronizing.  He was talking down about me, as if he was superior, and more over, in the worst kind of way–not directly, but as if I wasn’t there.  A number of you are talking about me like I’m a crazy person. Yeah, tons of empathy there.  Thanks so much, definitely feel the love.

    But, yeah, what David and Dena (and some others) are advocating, is basically just tolerance 101, that any semi-mature person with an ounce of empathy and conscience would already practice. My motto and creed has long been, if you disagree with someone’s perceptions, beliefs, and if it’s not harming others, then either ignore it or debate it impersonally with logic, reason, facts, and/or evidence.

     

    #3597863
    Dena Kelley
    BPL Member

    @eagleriverdee

    Locale: Eagle River, Alaska

    Katt- it just might be! If you ever make it up this way, let us know. I can show you around the Anchorage/Eagle River/MatSu area, maybe David would volunteer to show you the Kenai peninsula!

    Justin- I don’t think you’re crazy, but I think that people and animals that have really good senses of direction are benefiting from a biological process rather than a psychic one. But many biological phenomena have been attributed to other things when people didn’t understand them- a “gut instinct” that something is wrong is often triggered by our amygdala being stimulated with something completely foreign that it’s never dealt with or something that really was a major problem before and we react based on that rather than any logical thought processes from our frontal cortex. And then my guess is we all have our weird beliefs- or perceived weird by other people- I know a lot of people think I’m weird.  I do believe you add desirable substance to the forum in many of your posts and I don’t want to see you leave out of being made to feel unwelcome or because you get banned. I find the fact this this thread got created unfortunate and hopefully it will all blow over soon. I 100% agree that tolerance of different beliefs should be the norm rather than censorship. IMO forums that get heavily moderated end up as ghost towns.

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