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MLD Pro Silnylon 2015-2016


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  • #3400705
    William Chilton
    BPL Member

    @williamc3

    Locale: Antakya

    To widen the discussion a bit:

    Anyone experience misting with cuben? Anyone experience misting with MLD’s newer silnylon?

    If misting is solely due to condensation, it should be just as common in the above cases.

    Personally, I’ve had misting with silnylon (Golite Shangr La 2) but not with cuben. Data point of 1, though so not very significant on its own.

    #3400711
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    was it enough to get your gear wet, or did you just feel it on your skin

    skin will notice a very small amount

    #3400717
    William Chilton
    BPL Member

    @williamc3

    Locale: Antakya

    If that question was addressed to me, on the skin and then only noticeable when very close to the fly. It was in a heavy thunderstorm and after a night of rain and high humidity. I have no idea if it was water coming through or it was condensation.

    #3400718
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    I have a Solomid XL that I bought in late December of ’14. First trip I experienced 11 hours of record setting rainfall. Condensation yes, but no misting. Never had misting in my Duomid either. Bought that in 2010.

    #3400719
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    william …

    when condensation drops get knocked off by heavy rain, youll feel em even when farther away from the fly …

     

    in fact you might see it on the DWR fabrics of your gear … or on every part of your inner tent, even those that are farther away (vestibule side) from the fly

    however even in pretty heavy condensation it takes quite a while for the amount to build up and “splatter” where its a threat to anything …

    ;)

    #3400721
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    “regardless there isnt any really good reason to NOT going with higher HH fabrics … especially as most the new big cottage offerings have it anyways”

     

    Apparently not, as MLD’s Pro Silnylon has been around for 5-6 years and had been claimed to have a HH of 3500mm where Richard’s test shows this is not the case.

    #3400722
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    “To widen the discussion a bit:

    Anyone experience misting with cuben?”

    https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/44516/

    Cuben discussion above.

    #3400724
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    ummm … david

    isnt the NEW 2016 pro sil rated by MLD at “3 times” the waterproofness of their older sil?

    as per richards post last page …

     

    The red 2016 Duomids that MLD sold were not manufactured using the 2016 Pro Silnylon. On the MLD Fabric Mojo page it states in part: “MLD Pro Silnylon 2015 30d X 30d High Tenacity Type 6-6 RipStop Nylon coated with a Silicone-PU coating. Each side get two coating passes for the most even coating possible. About 1.5oz sq/yd – Pro Silnylon does not mist or leak in any weather condition.” This is what I tested today at 1160mm HH.

    Our 2016 Silnylon is about 3X the water proofness of older versions for an even longer service life.” 1,160mm x 3 = approximately 3,500 for 2016 Duomids, manufactured in colors OTHER THAN RED, which is what Ron tested as 3,500mm HH on FB.

    i dont believe the older one was ever claimed at >3000mm HH … otherwise the new one would indeed be exceptional at 9000mm+ HH !!!!

    and the post brings up a great point … longer service life … saves having to recoat the sil which takes time, expense and adds a bit of weight …

    ;)

    #3400729
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140711154000/http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=105  (Fully waterproof)

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140626121309/http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/fabric.php

    (Our Silnylon does not mist)

    These snap shots were from 2014.

    “MLD Pro Silnylon 2015 30d X 30d High Tenacity Type 6-6 RipStop Nylon coated with a Silicone-PU blend. ABout 1.6oz sq/yd MADE IN THE USA – Pro Silnylon Does Not Mist. What Makes it Pro Silnylon? There are always variations in fabric runs and coating density and quality can vary greatly over time even from the same manufacturer. This light, strong and fully waterproof fabric is tested by us – EVERY ROLL. We use our in-house hydrostatic tester on every roll before we build it into products. Our 2015 Silnylon is about 2X the water proffness of older versions for an even longer service life. Other companies can not or do not do that critical quality control test. They have large fabric lots shipped directly to their sew factories where it is never checked for water resistance. We build all our shelters in house and test them ourselves. We never want to be in the situation of receiving 300 completed shelters made from iffy fabric and then be forced to sell them or go out of business by trashing them. Pro Silnylon Does Not Mist!”

    2 X the waterproofness and now 3 X the waterproofness!  Yet at 2 X the waterproofness of the original silnylon it was fully waterproof….at 1200 mm. ?!??!

    #3400730
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    ummmm david …

    where does it list the hydrostatic head in your links?

    so youre saying the OLD silnylon (pre 2016) was claimed by ron at > 3000mm HH????

    and that richard proved ron “wrong” about the pre 2016 sil????

    ;)

    #3400731
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    I was sure I had read it but have edited my post above.

    “2 X the waterproofness and now 3 X the waterproofness! Yet at 2 X the waterproofness of the original silnylon it was fully waterproof….at 1200 mm. ?!??!”

    I wasn’t trying to prove Richard wrong.  I was claiming that there is no difference in the fabrics.  Functionally.

    #3400733
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    ummm david …

    i dont see the “2x” quote on the links u posted … no mention of it

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140626121309/http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/fabric.php

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140711154000/http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=105

    maybe you left out a link?

    perhaps ron has moved to the 3500mm HH for a reason …

    longer term durability if nothing else …

    probably no real reason not to, as most major cottage manufacturers have done so as well

    ;)

    #3400734
    William Chilton
    BPL Member

    @williamc3

    Locale: Antakya

    Thanks for the cuben link, David. I remember that thread; it’s Saturday night here and I’m not going to reread the whole thread right now but I don’t remember if there were reports of cuben misting in it.

    #3400738
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    “maybe you left out a link?”

    Eric – yup, left out a link.  Here it is:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20150206004705/http://mountainlaureldesigns.com/fabric.php

    “MLD Pro Silnylon 2015 30d X 30d High Tenacity Type 6-6 RipStop Nylon coated with a Silicone-PU blend. ABout 1.6oz sq/yd MADE IN THE USA – Pro Silnylon Does Not Mist. What Makes it Pro Silnylon? There are always variations in fabric runs and coating density and quality can vary greatly over time even from the same manufacturer. This light, strong and fully waterproof fabric is tested by us – EVERY ROLL. We use our in-house hydrostatic tester on every roll before we build it into products. Our 2015 Silnylon is about 2X the water proffness of older versions for an even longer service life. Other companies can not or do not do that critical quality control test. They have large fabric lots shipped directly to their sew factories where it is never checked for water resistance. We build all our shelters in house and test them ourselves. We never want to be in the situation of receiving 300 completed shelters made from iffy fabric and then be forced to sell them or go out of business by trashing them. Pro Silnylon Does Not Mist!”

    I have been using MLD silnylon for years and clearly had early iterations but no misting at an apparent lower HH.

    #3400740
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    ahhh … interesting

    are we SURE that the item richard tested is the old 2015 2x pro sil???

    notice that he measure it at 1.7 oz … while yrs is 1.6 oz … possible measurement error/variation?

    john H posted this earlier …

     

    <span class=”Apple-style-span”>#3 Older MLD Silnylon 30d nylon silicone-PU blend / silicone-PU blend coated about 1.7oz sq/yd
    #4 NEW 2016 MLD PRO SILNYLON 30d Silicone/Silicone coated about 1.5oz/sqyd</span>

    the other question is whether the sample is NEW … as we all know the HH will eventually degrade

    basically if it is the PRO 2015 version n new condition .. yr saying that richard “proved” rons statements to be incorrect ….

    a tested 1200mm HH vs a claimed 2400 HH … VERY interesting that theres would be such a big gap between claims and actual …

    regardless of this misting does happen as the quote i posted in the last page from the tarptent rep indicated … of course tarptent has since upgraded their fabric

    and as various BPLers have indicated as well

    it aint a “myth”

    ;)

    #3400743
    J-L
    BPL Member

    @johnnyh88

    So when is the Eric and David backpacking trip going to happen? Pretty sure you are both in Canada

    I have never heard of cuben misting.

    Here is a perspective on HH for tents:

    http://thetentlab.com/MoonLightTents/Waterproofness.html

    Also has an interesting view on tear strength for tents

    #3400744
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    john …

    to answer your question about the “trip” … i plan to head to rogers pass area and the rockies this year to solo some moderate climbs (some may include bivying or traverses over more than a day)

    david is always welcome to join … but he is responsible for his own safety as i wont be climbing roped up  (though i may bring a very thin tag line for rappels), and the risks may be substantial

    anyways … back to your regularly scheduled programming

    ;)

    #3400751
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    “So when is the Eric and David backpacking trip going to happen? Pretty sure you are both in Canada”

    LOL.  That would be cool.  He could tach me about climbing and I could teach him about backpacking.

    : )  Just kidding.

    Eric, the Silnylon used by Richard was new and circa early 2016.

    #3400752
    James holden
    BPL Member

    @bearbreeder-2

    hmmmm thats VERY interesting david …

    perhaps we can get confirmation from richard that the sample is new

    and confirmation from ron that this is the 2x (2400mm) fabric, not some other older version

    that is a VERY large discrepancy

    alas … i am a pretty poor climber and have nothing to teach … other than YUR GUNNA DIE !!! (common climbing answer/joke)

    ;)

    #3400756
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    “other than YUR GUNNA DIE !!!” LOL.

    #3400782
    monkey
    Spectator

    @monkeysee

    Locale: Up a tree

    @richard295 wrote:

    I did not get a sample of the 2016 Pro Silnylon from MLD to test.

    Shouldn’t the title of this thread be changed now that this point has been clarified? Its somewhat confusing otherwise…..

    #3400881
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    Coated Tent Fly 101
    The HH Degradation Curve
    Any tent fly hydrostatic head (HH) specification, if provided, is for the new condition only. Yet any moisture (rain, dew, or condensation) + wind create coating exfoliation resulting in a lower HH value than the measured new value. This phenomenon can be precisely measured in a lab using a wet-flex tester. The degradation curve plateaus when most of the coating has exfoliated; the remaining barrier is just the fabric weave.

     
    I measured the 2015 MLD Pro Silnylon curve last night using a Cubex-Type Wet-Flex Tester. The Y axis is the HH and the X axis is the wet-flex cycle count. In summary it shows a similar degradation curve to most US domestically produced silnylon.

    Note: Each blue marker represents ~2 weeks of field use with moisture/wind.

    Rain Drop Physics Summary
    According to ISO 811, materials with a hydrostatic head of more than 150 cm (1,500mm) can be designated, in general, as rainproof. You can calculate this value by assuming a 3mm raindrop is the average that you will encounter and the tent fly distorts 2.43 times the rain drop diameter to soften the blow (reduce the kinetic energy).

     

    The same calculation for the maximum rain drop size you might encounter of 4.5mm results in an increased HH requirement of 4,149mm.

     

    There is no scientific justification for the assertion that silnylon “misting” doesn’t exist and that it is ONLY “condensation”.

    #3400888
    David L
    BPL Member

    @family-guy-2-2

    So you are saying that if the HH of a fabric is exceeded, the fabric ‘mists?’  Or does it leak?  You have tested the fabric but what were the results on the other end of the fabric?  Leaking and misting are two different things.  If a fabric’s HH is exceeded and it leaks, does it leak continually after than or does it just briefly wet out?  Since rain is not localized, how can a HH tester replicate rainfall?  Does the shape of the canopy make a difference? Can you replicate ‘misting’ in the lab?  Have you?

     

    #3400917
    Richard Nisley
    BPL Member

    @richard295

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    David,

     
    You said in part, “So you are saying that if the HH of a fabric is exceeded, the fabric ‘mists?’ Or does it leak?”
    Water passes through the 1μ – 15μ interstices between the fibers and forms water molecule aggregations of approximately the same dimensions. Average size rain drops aggregate to a nominal size in the 3 – 4.5 mm range (~1,000x larger). Our vernacular uses mist for the small water molecule aggregations and drops for the large water molecule aggregations. Any water passing through the rain fly is a leak regardless of the water molecules aggregation size.

    You said in part, “If a fabric’s HH is exceeded and it leaks, does it leak continually after than or does it just briefly wet out?”
    A drop forms at an interstice at some specific pressure. If the pressure is reduced and the drop is wiped away, it will not form again until the pressure returns to the point where the drop originally formed. Wetting out is not relevant to measuring HH; wetting out is a measure of the fabric’s surface energy only as opposed to its ability to resist water pressure.

    My HH tester has the face at a 45 degree angle to facilitate seated viewing. The pin-head sized water aggregations look exactly like condensation. The vast majority of the time, if the pressure is left the same or reduced, they stay stuck to surface of the fabric like condensation. I assume it is the bipolar forces in the capillary under the pin-head sized water aggregation that holds it in place. If I flick the surface with my finger, they again act exactly like condensation drops. It is impossible for me to look at the roof of my shelter with a strong light and make a distinction between water molecule aggregations formed from condensation and those related to HH. My only recourse is to measure the HH periodically and recoat when it falls below the1500mm HH threshold. Not coincidently I have much less moisture on the roof with adequate HH.

    You said in part, “Since rain is not localized, how can a HH tester replicate rainfall? Does the shape of the canopy make a difference?”
    The physics related math and the field transducer measurements are highly correlated regarding determining a water drop’s kinetic energy. They are also highly correlated regarding the Impulse-Momentum form of Newton’s Second Law calculations for a rigid surface like soil. The primary guess work for different shelter shapes is determining the drop deformation, from impact, found in the purple field of the spreadsheet segments I presented in my prior post.

     
    Some of the top scientists of the world collaborated to ascertain both the 1,500 mm threshold for considering shelters rainproof and the HH testing procedure. I understand their calculations and I follow their procedures but, I didn’t create them.

    You said in part, “Can you replicate ‘misting’ in the lab? Have you?”
    Yes and yes; detailed in prior responses.

    #3400942
    Sam Farrington
    BPL Member

    @scfhome

    Locale: Chocorua NH, USA

    Richard,
    Maybe you should become an advocate for ‘climate change.’
    Few would have the patience you have to explain what is obvious.
    PLEASE keep it up. You’re the only hope here for the 47 percenters like me.

    This site generally is like being present at a gear marketer’s convention.
    ‘Ordinary Guy’

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