Light and insulating material for wet conditions? Just had down failure.

Back of the jacket:

“I think that there’s a strong case to be made for using synthetic over down for anything serious.”

The rest of us have known that form many decades… since before ‘pile’ was replaced by ‘fleece’… way way back when we were wearing wool sweaters :)  Where have you been?

But… er… also… the REI DWR… Nikwax is known to not be the best nor last the longest… 2 years… you were due for a refresh

And, yes, many quality Goretex and eVent jackets will remain waterproof for many hours or even days or weeks if you keep them clean and the DWR refreshed.

One problem you might have is you washed your jacket with regular soap… or in a washer that had been used with regular soap without thoroughly cleaning it first (residues of wrong soap still in washer)… that would pretty much defeat whatever DWR there was on the jacket.

billy

I washed the jacket maybe a few months ago. Since then it actually hasn’t been used at all – so this was the first usage after being washed and dried.

How do you know the DWR on this jacket is Nikwax?

And just because the DWR wore off doesn’t mean that it would lose all waterproofness, does it? The eVent fabric by itself is still waterproof. Just because it wets out doesn’t mean that it will start letting water through. I was just walking around, so there is no way I soaked this through perspiration.

So despite paying $200 back in the day and having eVent, this particular jacket is still a piece of crap? How much do I need to spend? $400+ for a hardshell?

You might want to think about what soap you used to wash it.

And whether you cleaned out your washer well enough to get rid of regular soap residue.

billy

I honestly don’t know. I haven’t had a “home” for over 6 years. I’ve been traveling. Washing’s done from laundromats or hostels. I suppose I should be washing an empty load every time I do laundry then, huh?

This still doesn’t hit the mechanics of why this failed so bad. Ok, so there’s lingering detergent after washing. So what? What does that do to the actual mechanical properties of the eVent fabric that causes it to leak all over the place in my case?

I would think that improper washing would just make the fabric less breathable, which is clearly not the issue here. The issue here is that the fabric is no longer waterproof. Did laundering improperly punch holes in the fabric?

Victor, the DWR doesn’t have anything to do with the waterproofing of the jacket. Once the DWR fails and the face fabric wets out, there is still the impermeable event membrane layer. That makes me think that the jacket is damaged somehow. Once the face fabric wets out there is no breathability and you can get wet from sweat, but you said you were just walking around, so that’s not the case here.

Detergent strips off dwr. Is it possible for detergent to allow water to leak through event?

Down is best as a layer to throw on when you set up camp. Take off your wet clothes and you have a light poofball of warmth you can pull out. In that usage, the down will stay dry even in wet conditions. Fleece is best as your active layer that keeps you warm while hiking during the day and if wet gets taken off before you put on your down poofy. The other strategy is to put a synthetic jacket on over your damp hiking clothes when you stop moving to dry them out. Both strategies have their pros and cons.

Victor, the DWR doesn’t have anything to do with the waterproofing of the jacket. Once the DWR fails and the face fabric wets out, there is still the impermeable event membrane layer. That makes me think that the jacket is damaged somehow. Once the face fabric wets out there is no breathability and you can get wet from sweat, but you said you were just walking around, so that’s not the case here.

That’s what I thought, which is why I’m confused why we are even discussing DWR and laundering. The DWR can be completely utterly shot but the eVent should still keep me dry. I certainly shouldn’t have developed… what… 10+ wet spots everywhere and soaking the down through on the forearms, chest, upper back…

My takeaway from all this is that down is a layer to throw on when you’re at a *dry* camp. Like I said in the OP, there was no aerobic activity going on. I was essentially “at camp” with the only difference being that it was drizzling. All I was doing was taking a 200 meter stroll along the shore of a lake.

So I guess down is really only good for situations that are guaranteed to be bone dry with no activity. For anything else – skiing, hiking when the weather may be variable, taking a stroll in a drizzle, I should just go for synthetic (or wool?).

Take off your wet clothes and you have a light poofball of warmth you can pull out.

This quote seems to indicate that you’re going to get wet no matter what? There’s no scenario where you start the day in dry clothes and, because of waterproof outerwear, you *end* the day in dry clothes as well?

Is “waterproof” outerwear the same as the myth of “waterproof” footwear? Because through the years of trying waterproof footwear I’ve settled on just wearing Crocs for everything. Easily the best waterproof shoes I’ve ever used.

Regular laundry soaps contain surfactants.

Surfactants reduce the surface tension of water droplets (surface tension between water droplets and between droplets and fabric surfaces). Which makes water ‘wetter’…

It is that surface tension that keeps the water droplets from passing though the small pores in breathable fabrics.

Certainly a washer machine in a laundromat would have surfactant residues. I would run it though twice with soap rated for down before washing either down or a wpb jacket.

Billy

Durable water repellent
When new, the DWR treatment causes water to “bead” on the face fabric. Unfortunately, it quickly degrades due to abrasion, dirt, body oils, and other contaminants, and after short-term use the exterior fabric begins to “wet out,” or become saturated with water. At this point, humidity “outside” the fabric is 100 percent, and moisture will begin to move through the fabric to the inside — the reverse direction that is desired. The result: You’re wet from the outside

Andrew Skurka blog posts

.Breathability: an explanation of its importance, mechanisms, and limitations .

.Speculative thoughts on new GTX Active & Outdry Extreme .

“This quote seems to indicate that you’re going to get wet no matter what? There’s no scenario where you start the day in dry clothes and, because of waterproof outerwear, you *end* the day in dry clothes as well?”

This depends on a lot of things like how much you sweat, how intense the activity is, the outside temperature, the breathability of your jacket, if the face fabric wets out or not (determined by both the intensity of rain and the quality of dwr), but generally you should plan on being damp at the end of the day. Moisture accumulation can be minimized by only wearing the jacket when absolutely needed, wearing a water resistant but breathable windshirt when it’s only a light drizzle to both avoid moisture accumulation or allow accumulated moisture to evaporate, or simply using an umbrella. The myth of waterproof outwear comes from the breathable part. Despite not keeping your dry in extended rain, waterproof outwear is very important for keeping you warm. It traps a bunch of body heat, it prevents cold rain from flowing through your clothing, and prevents evaporative cooling which can be a significant form of heat loss.

I am a fan of polartec thermal pro. It is by far the best for insulating while wet and its warmth per weight is not far off from synthetic puffies when layered under a shell. I use the manzella high loft hoodie.

“At this point, humidity “outside” the fabric is 100 percent, and moisture will begin to move through the fabric to the inside — the reverse direction that is desired. The result: You’re wet from the outside”

I know that skurka holds this opinion, but has it ever been proven?

Certainly a washer machine in a laundromat would have surfactant residues. I would run it though twice with soap rated for down before washing either down or a wpb jacket.

Can I just wash it by hand with fresh water in a sink? That should get rid of any lingering detergents that are on it, right? And then just dry it in a dryer to revitalize the DWR? Or at least until the next time I decide to spend more than a handful of minutes in a light rain.

When new, the DWR treatment causes water to “bead” on the face fabric. Unfortunately, it quickly degrades due to abrasion, dirt, body oils, and other contaminants, and after short-term use the exterior fabric begins to “wet out,” or become saturated with water. At this point, humidity “outside” the fabric is 100 percent, and moisture will begin to move through the fabric to the inside — the reverse direction that is desired. The result: You’re wet from the outside

There shouldn’t be movement of water in any direction. That’s the point of waterproof fabric, right? It allows vapor through, but not solid water. I don’t see how I got so soaked from just vapor accumulation – liquid water must have gone through from everywhere. I was just strolling in the rain. Most of the time I was just *standing*. It was also about 50F so I was certainly not perspiring at all. The only scenario I can think of is that the outside layer wetted out and the water from the outside was pulled through the fabric as vapor at such a rate (with no exertion on my part) that it managed to soak me through in 30 minutes.

I do agree with him that “reviews” are not very thorough. How many reviews ever take the time to wear the WPB clothing to the point where the DWR fails (which takes less than an hour in a constant drizzle), and still maintain that they are bone dry?

From the Explain that stuff web site:

“<span class=”credit”>Keep it clean! One drawback of GORE-TEX is that you need to keep it clean to keep it waterproof—and clean it properly. Over time, as perspiration from your body escapes out through the material, it can cause a buildup of surfactants (detergent-like chemicals) that reduces the effectiveness of the waterproofing. In a similar way, the surfactants in ordinary detergents will clean GORE-TEX clothes but leave them considerably less waterproof. Always follow the manufacturer’s cleaning instructions and be sure to use proper cleaning and waterproofing products designed specially for GORE-TEX…. “</span>

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/goretex.html

Like any tool, you need to maintain it properly…

billy

Victor, the only explanation is that the jacket is leaking somehow. You should return it to REI, its a clear warranty issue.

To stay warm above freezing under a raincoat, fleece!

It doesn’t matter how good the dwr or membrane is.  Moisture comes both inside and outside.  Rain, drizzle, high humidity or perspiration- any of these can cause the issue you describe.  Fleece stays warm and dries fast.

If it’s below freezing, add the synthetic layer too.

From a response on Andrews blog

Andrew refers to the fabric label “waterproof-breathable” in his new book as being an “oxymoron”, a sentiment with which I can concur.

A few years ago I developed a test of a garment’s waterproof qualities in response to the bold claims and aggressive advertising of the Gore-Tex company, following a series of jackets that had failed me in cold wet British conditions, and challenged them.

After an exchange of correspondence an air ticket duly arrived, and I was invited to their Edinburgh factory to demonstrate it.

My test was very simple, employing a water-soluble food dye used in Indian restaurant cuisine as an indicator. I dubbed it my “Tandoori-test”, as it utilised the bright red colour found in the much beloved chicken dish.

It involved soaking an item overnight to achieve the kind of fabric condition witnessed following a typical day’s backpacking in Scottish weather and a night in a tent’s porch, and then towel drying it and applying a small puddle of the red water onto its surface, with a piece of kitchen tissue placed underneath to catch anything passing through.

The result was always the same; the red water traversed the material and stanied the paper.

At the factory I was greeted by a number of industrial chemists who were clearly disbelievers, confident in their material’s propriety and ability to withstand any challenge. I was shown a range of sophisticated tests they claimed clearly demonstrated their fabric’s imperviousness, which supported the various patents and awards they held. After seeing my test however their faces and attitude changed; all of the pre-prepared samples failed as I expected.

In fact little was said and I returned home. Subsequently I received a letter stating their experts had considered what they had witnessed, and had concluded that water was not actually passing through the fabric, but only the dye, the solid part of which had “sublimed” across the membrane and recombined with the dampness on the other side.

Afterwards I attempted to get the story published in the TGO magazine, as I thought people would like to judge for themselves, but they would not run it. Seemingly there was a conflict of interest, as they heavily advertise the product and were obviously dependent upon revenues.

Over the years I have continued to employ my test with many other so-called waterproof-breathables, and I can say that they all fail – actually and intuitively in order of breathability. The more “breathable” the less “waterproof” is the truth of the matter. As Andrew said, the term waterproof-breathable is an oxymoron. It is a physical impossibility to have both.

All such garments are actually porous to water in varying degrees. In sustained precipitation it is only a matter of time before it comes through. The inevitable is simply delayed, which is usually enough for most people, and a reasonable trade-off in clement conditions.

(Anyone attempting the test for themselves shouldn’t be afraid of permanently staining their item, as being water-soluble, a further soak removes any residue.)

From a response on Andrews blog…

I’m confused why they decided to soak the garment inside and out beforehand? A simpler test would be to take a garment and pool some water on the outside so that it just sits there like a little puddle. Make sure the DWR is gone and the outside has wetted through. Then after some time feel the inside layer of the garment to see if water has ingressed. Or maybe spray some water on the inside and wait to see if *more* water than what was sprayed shows up on the inside.

The sublimation of food dye is weird though – sublimation is simply something that goes from a solid directly into a gas, bypassing the liquid phase (think dry ice), and since it’s an endothermic reaction, it requires energy from somewhere to start the reaction (like heat from the surrounding environment). I’m not sure if food dye can even sublimate, period, or what would have caused it to sublimate.

So does anyone have any recommendations for NON-breathable waterproof jackets and pants with excellent venting?

Someone (maybe the blog) mentioned Sierra Designs Elite Cagoule but their website says that it’s made from WPB fabric as well.

https://sierradesigns.com/mens-elite-cagoule/

I’m thinking that something like a long (butt-covering), well-ventilated, waterproof non-breathable jacket combined with the Sierra Designs chaps will be the best bet for low-activity extended wet-weather environments where you want to stay bone-dry:

https://sierradesigns.com/elite-rain-chaps/

To stay warm above freezing under a raincoat, fleece!

It doesn’t matter how good the dwr or membrane is.  Moisture comes both inside and outside.  Rain, drizzle, high humidity or perspiration- any of these can cause the issue you describe.  Fleece stays warm and dries fast.

If it’s below freezing, add the synthetic layer too.

So should the order of layering be:

• skin
• wicking base layer (what material?)
• fleece / polartec thermal pro
• WPB shell

And then lug the down gear with you inside your pack when you’re actually hiking. Expect to get damp or soaked anyway but at least stay warm.

Once at camp take off the damp fleece and put on the down stuff? If it’s still raining at camp only use the down gear when inside the tent?

That is exactly what I do in wet weather. Other people may have a different strategy. I like my down jacket to be able to fit under my rain shell so I can walk around doing camp chores and keep my down jacket dry. That works fine as long as your down jacket is not actually leaking, and walking around camp you dont have moisture accumulation from sweat. It’s also really nice to have an umbrella. You can just pop it up and walk around with your dry camp clothes on.

Bringing the down stuff is optional. You can always get into your sleeping bag right after you set up camp. The down stuff allows you be comfortable in camp outside of your sleeping bag. Just depends on what your priorities are.The great thing about down is it’s very warm for the weight, so its great for boosting your comfort temp by sleeping in it. That way its not a item that you use for an hour in the evenings before taking off.

In below freezing conditions you should have an easier time staying dry because you can wear a breathable windshirt shell to shed snow instead of a non breathable shell to shed rain.

Nice post, Link.

To test if it is the food dye sublimating should be pretty easy. Put some dry food dye on the outside and see if it still passesthrough the membrane.

In below freezing conditions you should have an easier time staying dry because you can wear a breathable windshirt shell to shed snow instead of a non breathable shell to shed rain.

Heh, depends on the kind of snow. If it’s the wet stuff that we get in Australia or Pacific Northwest, I’ve found that it lands on the shell and then melts from body heat. Since it’s not a large amount of water, it’s unable to develop into balls of water and roll off. I can’t tell you how many days I’ve sat on lift chairs wearing my jacket and my Black Diamond Schoeller Nanosphere pants and gotten completely, utterly wetted out from falling snow. After just 15 minutes of being out in these conditions I’m basically completely at the mercy of the synthetic material’s ability to keep me warm while wet.

Most useful recent thread on this.

A well-trodden topic, to say the least.

• event is known not to be as durable as gore … theres been several cases of outright leaks around the various brands here on BPL
• regardless in wet condtions down may still get damp from water ingress or condensation
• to protect the down wear it UNDER synth or fleece

in truly wet conditions, you want fleece … period … thermal pro hi loft is best

no matter what youll eventually get damp if not wet ,… the trick is to make sure every component of your active system is quick drying … and every bit of your camp/sleep system is protected and be combined with other items to manage the moisture

using down in wet conditions requires vigilance and skill …. and for other parts of your gear system not to fail

from our dear leader …

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2006/02/down_gear_in_sc/

;)