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It’s Time to Talk About Campfires


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Home Forums Campfire Editor’s Roundtable It’s Time to Talk About Campfires

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 154 total)
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  • #3725120
    Herman
    BPL Member

    @hre814

    Locale: Alaska

    Agreed on hypothermia and campfires. Far better methods for treating that at one’s campsite.

    #3725121
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

     

    From Herman’s link. Good to know.

    “Wildfires can be caused by nature — mostly due to lightning strikes — but the vast majority are caused by humans. Research estimates that nearly 85 percent of wildland fires in the United States are caused by people….”

    #3725122
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    Is this “arrogant and draconian”?

    I would say that you’re bordering on it, yes, but that’s just my opinion.  You can assign personal relevance all you like, and I support you doing so, but keep in mind the fact that your circumstances are not everyone’s circumstances.  If campfires truly present more risk than reward in your environment, so be it: don’t use them if you experience neither inclination nor necessity.  Be aware, however, that this is not true for all environments and all peoples, in all situations.  Transferring specific or idiosyncratic personal experiences into blanket policies can be dangerous, and is and often both blinding and misleading.

    Question: do you feel that other wilderness skills – acquiring water/shelter/food, identifying plants/animals, reading the weather, etc. – have also gone by the wayside?  If so, why?  If not, why not?  What is the difference between those and the employment of fire?

    Also, you are correct: you do not know where I live, or what impact any current events may have had on me.   There are fires everywhere in this world, these days.

    #3725124
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    from  the post above: “Transferring specific or idiosyncratic personal experiences into blanket policies can be dangerous, and is and often both blinding and misleading.

    Question: do you feel that other wilderness skills – acquiring water/shelter/food, identifying plants/animals, reading the weather, etc. – have also gone by the wayside?  If so, why? ”

    How in the world did you come up with all that? I thought we were discussing fires in the wilderness. I stand by what I’ve written.

    The topic of this thread is, after all, It’s Time to talk about fires in the wilderness.

    #3725125
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    How in the world did you come up with all that? I thought we were discussing fires in the wilderness.

    The same way that you, I and others have mentioned ideas and examples that were tangential to the topic at hand…which is not, incidentally, “fires in the wilderness.” The title and topic is campfires and the discussion thereof: some (including the author) have equated that topic to wildfire risk, some to survival skills, some to human evolutionary processes, some to nostalgia, and – in your example – to the bad behavior of Boy Scouts.  At no time have any of those tangents been problematic: this is, after all, a discussion thread.  Likewise, I don’t see my questions to you regarding the legitimacy of survival skills and the inclusion of safe fire-building amongst them as being problematic.

    I stand by what I’ve written.

    I’m glad that you do…and just so it’s perfectly clear: my questions to you have been made in order to better understand you, and – if desired – to afford you more opportunities to express and clarify your opinion.  Whether or not you and I agree is irrelevant; what is important is that we continue the dialogue and each attempt to see from the perspective of the other.  After all, is that not the core purpose of this thread?

    #3725148
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    It took me awhile to find this graph – thanks, search engine algorithms – and, having done so, I thought it would shed some interesting light on our discussion here: it is a breakdown of the sources for human-caused wildfires on US Forest Service lands since 2006.

    There’s a bit more information on this page if anyone is interested in reading it, but the chief factoid to take away from this graph is that campfires account for slightly less than half of the total of the human-caused fires that were tallied at the time of the graph being created.  That’s a significant portion, and in my opinion, it demonstrates that more comprehensive fire education is needed on all levels: juvenile, adult, professional, recreational, etc.  By attacking the systemic lack of knowledge, care, concern and awareness of campfire safety and safe/effective fire usage that we in the US seem to exhibit, we would be taking on the single largest current contributor to wildfire origins.  Personally, I can’t see how that’s a bad plan; it covers all of the bases on both sides of this debate, and it would help Average Joe Camper not only know when and why to absolutely not build a fire, but when and how it’s permissible to enjoy a campfire safely.  So, again: BPL masterclass as a good way to start?

    #3725149
    two pints
    Spectator

    @madgoat

    Locale: Ohio

    If any Scout leader is approving of their Scouts “lopping off branches” to make bonfires, then they are irresponsible leaders who are not following the clear instruction from the Scout handbook and their training as a leader.

    A major focus of the Scouting program is to teach LNT, conservation, stewardship, and responsible citizenship with regards to our natural treasures.  It may be the single largest organization in the US that is teaching these ideals.

    I for one am thankful for the skills I learned as a Scout 30+ years ago.  And I am thankful for the way I was taught LNT principles and environmental stewardship.  And I am happy to impart this to my sons and to the scouts in our troop.

    One of my favorite quotes:

    “Volunteering is the ultimate exercise in democracy.  You vote in elections once a year but when you volunteer, you vote every day about the kind of community you want to live in.”  -Anonymous

    #3725168
    Dave @ Oware
    BPL Member

    @bivysack-com

    Locale: East Washington

    Treating Hypothermia requires an external heat source. If a stove or other warm non-hypothermic bodies are not available, a fire may be the best bet for hot liquids and warming and drying the victim.

    #3725172
    Herman
    BPL Member

    @hre814

    Locale: Alaska

    Treating mild into moderate hypothermia with an alert and cooperative patient does not necessarily require a fire. If they can move and contract their muscles, that will warm them up quicker than a fire will. If your patient has a decreased level of consciousness, then placing them next to a fire, when they can’t move and protect themselves, is dangerous. For sure fires are great for making hot drinks and drying clothing in such cases.

    #3725193
    Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    My wife once had mild hypothermia.  I covered her in a sleeping bag and crawled in with her.  Apperantly, a normal human will output 100-120 watts of heat.  It seems like that would be  lot faster than starting a fire.

    #3725194
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    Yes, I think erecting a dry shelter, putting the person in a sleeping bag and possibly climbing in with them, then immediately heating water on a stove and having them drink that would be the first moves. Often the weather is wet and cold when someone has hypothermia. It may well take a long time to get a fire going in those conditions. Standing in cold rain next to a fire…? maybe not all that effective. If there’s a group and it’s not pouring rain and others aren’t themselves cold and in need of shelter (likely) I suppose a fire might eventually be welcome.

    #3725202
    Paul S
    BPL Member

    @pula58

    We never ever make fires..ever. Leave no trace. What is so hard to understand about leave no trace. Not “some” trace, “no” trace. Done. Bring warm cl0othes, use a gas (liquid or canister) stove. Done. It’s sad to encounter a firepit, and the mess around it. Bummer. And the cutting of limbs off trees (even if dead limbs) and the forest floor devoid of wood because it has all been collected, scavenged and burnt just so someone can have a campfire in the evening, a passing pleasure with lasting impact. It can take decades for a campfire ring to be reclaimed by nature.

    I also personally would rather not have a fire because the smoke invariably gets in my eyes, all over my clothes. It is nice to just have it be dark and enjoy the nighttime as it is.

    #3725203
    Dave @ Oware
    BPL Member

    @bivysack-com

    Locale: East Washington

    In terms of treating hypothermia, the first steps as mentioned should be removing the person from the conditions that are drawing heat away. However by definition, without adding external heat the person will not recover.

    Anecdotal- had a teenager take an unintentional swim while rafting on a cold river on a cold day. It took 3 different people crawling in the sleeping bags to warm him up. In turn each got too cold and had to be replaced by another.

    We had a fire to keep everyone else  warm while we treated the young man and dried his clothes.

    #3725204
    Herman
    BPL Member

    @hre814

    Locale: Alaska

    Side tracked off of fires.

    Concerning leave no trace. I understand that point. How does burning dead wood from the forest floor affect the wilderness other then removing kindling for a wildfire? I’d love to see the LNT advocates work more on dogs pooping on the trails and the wilderness, or poop bags being left on the side of the trail to supposedly get picked up later.  Or off leash dogs going wherever they please. Or those hiking with music playing and causing noise pollution which alters wildlife behavior. I’d agree on LNT, but often I see picking and choosing of when LNT will be called out.

    If the person is cold and hypothermic in the wilderness and is able to move and generate their own heat by exercise, that is the main way to bring up their core temperature quickly. You can feed and water them during that time as well.  Not letting them passively sit or lay. Fire is good for drying all your or their stuff and keeping people warm while you work in getting the other colder person warmer.

    #3725205
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    I’d agree on LNT, but often I see picking and choosing of when LNT will be called out.

    I would agree with you on this point; like most moral arguments, it is often highly subjective in its deployment.  Also, it’s worth mentioning that “leave no trace” does not equate into “never have a fire”…and this fact is borne out by LNT themselves in Principle 5: Minimize Campfire Impacts.

    https://lnt.org/why/7-principles/minimize-campfire-impacts/

    After reacquainting myself with their advice and suggestions, I can say that I’m pretty much on board with them.  I like that they specifically mention the avoidance of overusing fallen wood.

    You know, I just had a thought: why is it that we are so committed to lessening fossil fuel usage, and yet so enamored with stoves that utilize hydrocarbons as their fuel source?  From this perspective, could it be argued that a clean-burning wood stove is actually more environmentally friendly than a dinosaur-powered gas stove?  For that matter: do twig-burning wood stoves count as campfires? 🤔

    #3725208
    jscott
    BPL Member

    @book

    Locale: Northern California

    Well…if it’s still raining…I don’t want to be out ‘drying’ my clothes in sleet.

    I would imagine that for most backpackers, weather is more often the cause of hypothermia than falling in a lake, for example. Maybe I’m wrong!

    Again, the Western U.S. is in a major drought. Fires are burning everywhere, with at least two more months of fire season to go. Fires are banned in most wilderness areas. This is not a “moral” “subjective” ban  that could go either way depending on your viewpoint, and it’s all good. It is a ban attempting to address an eminently objective, real ongoing problem. Firefighters are dying and homes and animals and forests are being incinerated. This isn’t a good time to be taking people out into the woods and showing them good fire building practices.

     

    #3725209
    Dan
    BPL Member

    @dan-s

    Locale: Colorado

    You know what … never mind.

    #3725260
    obx hiker
    BPL Member

    @obxer

    My grandmother cooked all the food for my mother and her 5 siblings and on until the mid 60’s on a wood burning stove that must have literally weighed a ton and never went out or at least not until she did. We still gather for reunions in that room which is now a lot more modern. Anyway point being that fire is not necessarily something from the ancient past.

    Growing up in the 50’s/60’s with boy scouts and hunting and etc. camp fires were a part of life; almost of daily life. Fond memories of arrowhead hunting in harvested peanut fields and making a fire in the field and roasting peanuts. Of course eastern NC is a relatively wet place and can’t really remember having any idea what a wildfire was like except that Smokie the Bear cautioned us about it quite frequently on TV.

    Now I’ve come to agree with Jon Fong that it’s troubling to try and reconcile camp-fires with LNT and there’s also that release of carbon involved; though I have a dandy firepit and burn wood so can’t claim some sort of higher ground in that regard. But there is something almost mystical about sitting around a nice campfire, watching the coals glow and pulse, entranced.

    I remain though really interested in LNT and think if you want to practice a really important survival skill that might be worthy of consideration.

    Had no idea who Bob Ross was but now I know and will play one of his soothing videos while I take a nap and perchance to dream about gender reveals?

    #3725277
    Marcus
    BPL Member

    @mcimes

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>I have a fire whenever legal, safe, and practical. I always will. Fire is life. I also never burn trash, never leave unattended, go overboard extinguishing the fire, and respect fire bans. Also, if good wood is not available we do not take green wood or overuse available wood.</p>
    As with all things things, using common sense and respect should be applied to fires. A trip without a fire is marginally incomplete in my book, but does happen often as I’m in California and fires are only safe to have from the first rain to a month after the last rain, which can be as little as 4 months a year.

    #3725278
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I don’t think you have to worry about CO2 released from fires.  If you didn’t burn that wood, it would naturally decay releasing the CO2.  Although it would be better for nature to let the wood decay slowly.

    Not to mention it’s such a small amount as to not worry about.  Driving to the trailhead is another story.

    #3725280
    Josh J
    BPL Member

    @uahiker

    To coin a phrase from Spiderman,  “with great power, comes great responsibility ”

    Fire is a great power for good and evil, and occasionally good turns into evil because of laziness and complacency.

    I believe making fire is a life skill everyone should learn, just like swimming,  but making fire carries more responsibility because you also need to learn how to take care of it,  extinguish it correctly and respect it’s power.

    Can you make a fire and leave no trace, yes, if done correctly,  can it be done and leave minimal trace, yes. But it requires thinking and practice to make perfect.

    For me fire is not only about survival,  cooking,  heat, socializing but therapy.  Ever hear of fire meditation?  Fire has a calming affect which slowly brings you into an alpha state which is very calming and stress reduction ect…

    I am teaching my boys how to respect and be responsible with fires and anytime I have a fire in the back country I always make sure the fire is out and I can touch bare hands and use an existing fire ring/spot if I can.

    #3725286
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    Can you make a fire and leave no trace, yes, if done correctly, can it be done and leave minimal trace, yes.

    As evidenced by the afore-posted link, in which LNT themselves state their policy as “reduce campfire impacts” instead of “don’t have a campfire.” I feel that this is infinitely more practical and effective than pure abstinence…but perhaps I’m just having flashbacks from being a teenager in a school system that taught abstinence from everything as the only effective method.  Shiver.

    And more importantly: how does someone not know who Bob Ross is?!?!

     

    #3725292
    Josh J
    BPL Member

    @uahiker

    Bonzo,

    I thought everyone knew Bob Ross! I grew up watching him and my 5&7 yr olds know who he is and watch him!!

    We must have gone to the same school…..

    #3725294
    Bonzo
    BPL Member

    @bon-zo

    Locale: Virgo Supercluster

    I thought everyone knew Bob Ross!

    I mean, the man has his own channel; it makes me wish I had TV/streaming service.

    #3725296
    Josh J
    BPL Member

    @uahiker

    I mean, the man has his own channel; it makes me wish I had TV/streaming

    Didn’t know he had his own channel,  but streaming is fairly cheap….. 😉

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