It’s Time to Talk About Campfires

[Ben Kilbourne]

Companion forum thread to: It’s Time to Talk About Campfires

Why do so many of us still feel compelled to have fires?

[Bonzo]

So I want to ask the backpacking community why many of us still feel compelled to have fires.

I think you covered it pretty well when you used the word “evolutionary.”  Despite our best conscious efforts, subverting 1.75 million years of a human experience in which fire was an absolute necessity for both survival and comfort is – at best – a losing battle.  Instincts are difficult things to fight.

And if I feel a desire to start a fire and know it is not actually needed for survival, I should try and remember that I may actually be engaging in an adult form of fire play that should have faded away a long time ago.

You may be, yes, but the conditional veracity of that statement would depend on your purposes.

Fires offer more than simple function and utility, as you’ve well-noted; if at any time that offering can be one which increases any individual’s well-being – either in terms of objective survival or subjective comfort – I would argue that a tacit discouragement of adult fire play could easily do more general harm than good.  It borders dangerously on a doctrine of abstinence rather than one of education, and I am concerned that such an avoidance would have approximately the same degree of success as other abstinence programs display in western culture: namely, that an avoidance of education and practical, safe experience actually increases the risk of a undesired outcome.  With this in mind, perhaps we could do some effective learning about campfires in the midst of talking about them; the debate would offer more substance and our cultural retardation in reference to fire would reduce by a bare fraction.

[Ben Kilbourne]

Bonzo – This is a great response. I love the points you bring up about the dangers of abstinence. I agree, and didn’t mean to suggest it. Education for sure is the way to go, we should all learn when to use them and when the ground around us is so dry it would be dangerous to do so. It all leaves me wondering if there should be even more childhood fire experimentation, so much so that we simply get it out of our systems? I don’t know. Thoughts?

[Herman]

Good points raised. I make fires at times when conditions are appropriate. Yes, there will be many who don’t, and their mistakes can have grave consequences. However if you added up all the fires or hours of fires made at campsites and looked at the wildfires caused, I think this would be statistically very low. I don’t see a problem with camp fires if it’s not super dry out and caution is used.

[Scott H]

I think you guys are right as to education, personally I don:t have to have a fire in the back country.  I have not built one yet, been on plenty of camp outs, especially scout events where others did.  These are usually not backcountry though but at camp sites with fire rings and so on.

However I know others feel compelled and they are going to build a fire.  So education is most pertinent.

[Herman]

Agreed with Scott in that some are “compelled”. There are some that don’t know how to camp without one. Kind of odd to me. I backcountry camp and start a fire maybe 10% of the time, if that. Education of folks is key, just like everything in life. Signage at trail heads that is prominent is best. Prominent because trail heads have become postings for all sorts of stuff so people ignore what is posted because there is too much on it.

[jscott]

I don’t feel 1.75 million years barking at me to kill a squirrel and eat it.  So, I’m guessing people build fires outdoors because their families did when they were growing up, or they somehow think that’s what one does in the outdoors. That, and fear of the dark woods. I really don’t like smoke, so would rather avoid that. And these days, there’s been a ton of negative reinforcement around fires. Last summer we lived through 2 1/2 months of smoky air from fires. Then rains put them out. Soon after, when I went for walks at night, people had fires in their fire places. One fire would smoke up several blocks of air. It actually made me angry, try as I might. Are you kidding?!!? More smoke!!?? I never had that reaction before.

[Bonzo]

It all leaves me wondering if there should be even more childhood fire experimentation, so much so that we simply get it out of our systems? I don’t know. Thoughts?

Before we go any further, I would like to make a point in my best Bob Ross Voice: there’s absolutely nothing inherently wrong with creating and enjoying a safe and happy little fire.  Such a creature can brighten your evening, cook your food, and possibly even save your life…but without education on the matter, even the best-intentioned fire can pose an undue and unnecessary risk to both life and (literal) limb.  Intentional, unsafe, and irresponsible f***ing around poses even greater risks, but thankfully the line between safe and unsafe fire usage is clear, and the knowledge of the differences is easy to impart on both juvenile and adult levels.  The events of the past few years have shown us all exactly how destructive an uncontrolled fire can be, but instead of trying to eradicate a primeval force from our system or subculture in hopes of avoiding future issues, let’s consider accepting our roles as stewards of both our environment and our evolution as more inclusive obligations, and begin more active education on the subject.

I don’t feel 1.75 million years barking at me to kill a squirrel and eat it.

Go a few days without being able to procure your food in other, more modern ways and you may find that your opinion changes on that matter.  The thin and fragile veneer of our comfortable first-world society is just that: thin, and fragile.  Shatter it, and you may be shocked at your squirrel predation capabilities.

So, I’m guessing people build fires outdoors because their families did when they were growing up, or they somehow think that’s what one does in the outdoors. That, and fear of the dark woods. I really don’t like smoke, so would rather avoid that.

You bring up two good points: a lot of people do things out of habit, familiarity, or sheer enjoyment…and lots more people don’t do things because they don’t like them.  In both cases, however, we’re afforded those options through a lack of necessity and a surfeit of general prosperity.

[Jerry Adams]

I usually build a fire in the winter.  warmth.  something to do on long nights.

I haven’t built a fire in months – too hot.  I don’t want to accidentally start a wild fire.  Some large fraction of wild fires are started by people’s camp fires.

I have never put a tin can or aluminum in a fire and then left it there.  I have picked up metal that someone else left.  If it’s steel, I’ll often just throw it in the bushes where no one will see it and it will rust after a while.

Some places aren’t really appropriate, like some alpine areas.  It seems criminal to burn up those white snags.

[DWR D]

I haven’t had a fire when out backpacking in over 40 years… not even one.

I go to bed with the sun. And on the rare occasion that I stay up after dark, I want to see the stars.

[Dan]

When I was relatively new to backpacking, I made a campfire a few times and remember thinking, “why did I bother?” It was a fair amount of work, and I didn’t get anything out of it. The fire gave me no joy, and it was just smoky and stinky. I can’t remember the last time I was tempted to do it.

[Paul Wagner]

We don’t build fires any more, in the backcountry or car camping.  Simplest reason us that they are just too damn much trouble to put out properly.

I remember camping in Yosemite Valley two days after it opened following the massive Mariposa fire.  The valley was thickly clouded with smoke.  And we were the only campsite that didn’t build a fire that night.

I don’t get it. We heat our cabin with a wood fire, but outdoors there are better ways to spend an evening than tending a fire and then drowning it over and over again in the dark…

And how many of you literally feel the ashes to make sure they are cold?

[Herman]

As a scouting leader, I’ve seen plenty of boys who don’t know how to start a fire. Plenty of homes don’t have wood burning stoves. Getting a kid to learn how to start a fire is an important life and self sufficiency lesson. That can be done at home, car camping or in the backcountry. It is a skill, even when started with a lighter, to learn and practice. One just can’t saddle up to a makeshift fire pit with a lighter and expect to keep a fire going without ever practicing it. I start backcountry fires when backpacking when conditions allow to also keep up survival skills. We’re raising a bunch of young men and women that can’t start and keep a fire going even with a lighter, let alone with a flint and steel/knife, mostly because their parents don’t ever do it themselves.

[Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear]

I live in Southern California and have experience multiple, large-scale wildfire.  This has really impacted my thoughts making a fire while backpacking.

A secondary issue to me is that having a fire tends to violate the LNT concept (my opinion, and mine alone).  I get tired of seeing fire scares on the trail, granted most of them were not in the proper location.  There is nothing worse to me than camping at a pristine Alpine Lake and seeing fire scares on the rocks.

Finally, why contribute to the potential Climate Change impacts?  I have even started backing off on having wood fires in my fireplace.  Does my enjoyment/comfort outweigh the impact on the environment?  Ever been in Yosemite Valley in the Summer?  The Valley is filled with smoke due to recreational campers.

Campfire: in an emergency for warmth, or cooking or for a signal?  No issues there.  In 2021, what are the tangible reasons for needing a campfire?  My 2 Cents (go ahead and fire away).

[DWR D]

I have a friend that just loves having a fire and standing around in the smoke when  out camping. And then wonders why his sinuses bother him. Sometimes we can be blinded by the things we love :)))  :(((

[Bonzo]

We heat our cabin with a wood fire, but outdoors there are better ways to spend an evening than tending a fire and then drowning it over and over again in the dark…

That’s a subjective opinion…

We’re raising a bunch of young men and women that can’t start and keep a fire going even with a lighter, let alone with a flint and steel/knife, mostly because their parents don’t ever do it themselves.

…as is this…

In 2021, what are the tangible reasons for needing a campfire? My 2 Cents (go ahead and fire away).

…as is this, in a way.  So, how do we resolve such differences, and how do we resolve them in a way that is both supportive and mutually beneficial to all parties?  I’ll quote Daryl Davies from his TED Talk: “It begins with listening.” Continuing with a productive discussion amidst the recognition and support of divergent opinions is a good start; formalized education on the subject would be a nice follow-up.  Is there a BPL Masterclass on the subject?  If not, may I respectfully submit a request for that content?  Assuming a curriculum that truly favors balanced and factual education over abstinence, condemnation or favoritism, I’ll happily contribute to the development cost.

[jscott]

When Rome was burning…a series of lectures and discussions about ‘our primeval heritage and fire’ was beside the point. Kids know this far better than their parents. Flint and steel knife? Whatever for?

How to start a fire? some of these kids have lost their homes to fires.

One can teach scouts how to build a fire safely in a backyard. When scouts are out camping, it’s far more important today to teach them how to get out of an area fast when it’s burning; or how to recognize that situation and assess it; and how to wear a mask. And how to refuse to participate in scout bonfires. And why.

[Bonzo]

Not to single you out beyond necessity, but: jscott, your post is a flawless example of what I mean when I say that we need to avoid conflating issues.  Learning how to escape a wildfire has nothing to do with learning how to correctly employ a purpose-built campfire…and in being so unrelated, it is not a refutation of the need for education on how to correctly and safely use fire.  The same can be said for for those dealing with the stress of losing their homes, or for the construction of expedient tools, or in standing up for one’s beliefs.  These are separate issues, none of which is inherently superior to the other: as such, all of these skills are potentially valid to any given individual.  Pre-selecting educational validity with no regard to particular circumstances of individual is unwise and untenable at best, and both arrogant and draconian at worst.  Instead, I suggest making a diverse education available and affordable for those that wish to acquire it, and attempting to display the relevance of any learning at all times.  Rather, I suggest not making decisions about what is relevant to other people on their behalf, and giving them diverse options instead.

As for Rome burning: what better underscore could you ask for, in regards to the need to know how to safely employ a fire?  “Look at what has happened,” we could say then and still say now, “and know that you need not be responsible for such a thing.”

Apologies in advance if this reads as too much of an attack; that was not my intent.  I very much respect your opinions and the content that you post…often most strongly upon my disagreements with you.

[Herman]

👍🏻 Bonzo. Well said.

[jscott]

I was suggesting that teaching  people “how to build a campfire” is no longer nearly as important as teaching people “how to escape from wildfire”. I’m suggesting that teaching the next generation how to go into the woods and build a fire has passed it’s day. Showing how fires aren’t necessary in most instances is more important. And then I pointed out that anyone can teach emergency fire building skills in safety of a backyard.  Is this “arrogant and draconian”?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, people assume that building fires in the wilderness is what’s done because people showed them that was so. And then the bad students went in and built unsupervised fires–it only takes one or two–and we end up with the West on fire.

I’ve seen up close scout leaders forming large groups of kids around a blazing bonfire that consumed untold number of sawed off limbs, as they caroused into the night.  Teaching kids survival tactics?  I don’t think so.

 

edit; Bonzo, I don’t know where you live. perhaps you haven’t been affected by wildfires?

 

 

[Herman]

I’m in Alaska. We have our share but nothing like the west coast. Most of these US wildfires are started by people I believe, but not necessarily campfires. Campfires are involved of course, along with brush pile burns, lit cigarettes being tossed, and now the ridiculous gender reveal parties. So if so many wildfires are started by people and some areas that are dry aren’t ground zero for these wildfires, might the “people” that inhabit these areas be the problem? Back to fire safety education. If most US wildfires are started by people, then the problem is the people. Not fire.

How to escape a wildfire is a valuable lesson. I’d like to see more online education on that, but to be honest I haven’t looked much. It’s a good suggestion for youth education and I’ll look into it.

I’m big on survival tactics, so I’ll just say I disagree. We have a society that can’t fend for itself. Fire building is just one of many different self reliance skills. Awesome that someone can run a 50 miler or hike a long trail, but if society broke down for a month some would be hysterical and expect others to serve their needs. I choose to not have my kids or those I teach in scouting to grow up like that.

 

[Tom K]

“As for Rome burning: what better underscore could you ask for, in regards to the need to know how to safely employ a fire?”

Lesson #1:  Don’t let barbarians play with matches.  That includes a lot of people currently wandering around in our wilderness areas.

“it’s far more important today to teach them how to get out of an area fast when it’s burning;”

Lesson # 2:  you can’t outrun a fire.

“and how to wear a mask.”

Lesson #3:  Wearing a mask will prevent you from trying to outrun a fire, but probably not much else, at least not for very long.

[jscott]

from what I understand, lightning causes the majority of fires. There have been any number of horrific fires started by people in the back country over the years, especially lately. Campfires.

The west is in a severe drought. Campfires are banned in the forest at this moment. No way to go in and teach fire building skills.

I think gender reveal parties are responsible for a very small number of major wildfires.

[Rex Sanders]

Backcountry campfires: Used to, not any more.

When I was a pup, the Boy Scouts practically lived around campfires. As a backpacker on my own, I made them sometimes, but quickly discovered they were a lot of work, and I generally sucked at it. Haven’t made a campfire while backpacking in decades.

As a whitewater raft guide and instructor, I stood around too many campfires, yakking into the night. Eventually my lungs couldn’t handle the smoke, and rafting buddies reminded me to stay away. Most of those campfires were in car campgrounds, rarely on beaches and rocks next to rivers, so the fire danger was low.

In my experience, campfires don’t help much for people slipping deeper into hypothermia. Lots of other stuff does (or doesn’t), take a good wilderness first aid class for details.

— Rex

[Herman]

According to the Dept of the Interior, most wildfires are man made.

https://www.doi.gov/blog/7-burning-questions-wildfires-public-lands

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