I just cancelled a backpacking trip I had booked in January

I heard on NPR someone who pointed out that 40,000 people are dying per month from Covid

But 40,000 people have been dying per month from obesity for a long time.  Mostly, this is because food manufacturers have got all this subsidized sugar.  It’s more complicated than that and unclear exactly what’s happening.

I think you have it backwards.  We are cowering down and living like we’re told eating all this sugar which makes the food manufacturers a lot of money and us obese.

If we quit eating like we’ve been told to we’d be happier and healthier.  Same with wearing masks.

I’m with you on the food  I’ve been low carb, no sugars for quite some time. As they say, buy your groceries from the outside perimeter of the grocery store (watch the fruit as it’s high in sugar) and stay out of the rest of the isles. Also, if it has a food label on it, don’t buy it. I’m in my sixties and take zero prescriptions. But, I’m still not going to wear a mask and follow the lemmings.

William, I FREELY choose to wear a mask because I understand the science of disease spread. I care about not infecting people that I love, and strangers for that matter. I also don’t want to catch Covid myself.

Are people lemmings for choosing not to smoke? No. They understand the risks and make an informed, FREE decision.

Covid is setting the terms, not ‘the government’. It’s the reality principle here. In that regard, I think those who choose not to mask have to answer why that decision Is Not adding to the spread of this disease. In other words, re framing the issue in terms of personal choice simply avoids the hard facts on the ground: not wearing a mask increases the spread of the disease. Nothing about lemmings changes that.

so. speak to the facts on the ground.

p.s.–there’s a county up in northeast California that is very sparsely populated and has something like six recorded cases of Covid. If someone there says they don’t see the need for a mask, I can respect that. they’re basing their decision on the conditions around them.

If enough people don’t wear masks and follow lemmings then the economic and health damage will be much worse, hopefully only a few people are doing this

I read that younger people going out in public without masks is what’s fueling the increase currently

so. speak to the facts on the ground.

What, that we’re all probably going to get this sooner or later and most of us will recover. Unhealthy people are going to have a really hard time with it, so yeah, they are at risk. We’ve decided that destroying small businesses and maybe even larger business along with the economy was well worth that.

What, are you waiting for a vaccine that they are fast-tracking at a pace never seen before? You can put that in your body but I’m not going to.

Just as reference, my life before Covid was probably more socially distanced than your’s is today. You see, I don’t really like people all that much.

Ha, I dont like people even more than you:)

The longer you delay getting it the better.  They keep improving treatments.  Eventually theyll get a vaccine

I’ll get vaccine, but I’ll wait a while, I can just socially distance, not urgent for me.

You dont have to get vaccine.  If 70% of the people do, the other 30% will be covered

Nobody likes wearing a mask. Every single one of us would prefer not to. Duh.   We can keep hospitals from being overwhelmed by wearing a mask and helping to slow the spread. This is a simple, easy action that doesn’t violate any of your rights, especially free speech. It’s a mask, not a muzzle. You can still go ahead and say dumb things. Grow up, think, and act like a functioning, rational adult.

We can do hard things.

Delete less, discuss, learn.

@wkerber If you were to learn that:

• you could be asymptomatic for Covid-19 without knowing it, and
• wearing a mask might reduce the risk of transmitting your Covid-19 to any individual that you came within 6 feet of by 3-6x

…would you wear a mask?

“You see, I don’t really like people all that much.”

A pretty airtight rationale for antisocial behavior if there ever was one.

I am also just about to cancel my trip to the Sierra, scheduled for July. What a beautiful year to go! The water is lower, the bugs aren’t too bad by most reports, I’ve done a few run up trips to know that I’m fit enough to do it, I got my altitude meds (from India! since my doc wouldn’t prescribe), I’ve got everything in line including time off. With my increasing age (56 next week!) and my debilitating arthritis, I worry that this might be my last chance. I’ve had a taste of hiking in the Sierra, and want to do more. But what if my physical condition deteriorates faster and I never get to go? I have the permit, the hotel reservation, even the food mostly prepped.

BUT…I have a conscience. If I get up there all alone, will I sit at a pristine lake, listening to the birds, and instead of enjoying, worry about friends and family? Will I worry about the possibility that I might have spread the virus while flying? I care about other people. I care enough not to feel great about taking the risk of traveling, potentially contracting and then spreading a virus that could kill someone. Anyone. Even someone on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Even a sexist old codger. I was raised to be nice to other people. I’m not always nice, but I try to be, because it seems like the right way to live my life. Just be nice to people. Don’t kill them. And right now, just wear a mask. So freakin simple. So outrageously simple. If you want to fight for your rights, maybe the mask issue really isn’t the thing. Be nice and wear a mask so you don’t spread a deadly virus.

“You see, I don’t really like people all that much.”

Most likely “most people” probably like you even less!

Food for thought…….

BTW we did a two night backpacking trip in Yosemite last week – it was just awesome!

We didn’t see a single person on the trails the first two days; on our way out exiting a popular trail we saw several day hikers and less than ten backpackers. Most people were either wearing masks or were respectful of distancing. We just stepped off the trail where we could to let hikers coming from the opposite direction go past us.

And the weather was awesome! But the bugs are out with a vengeance!

The Park service and especially the wilderness permit outfit at Yosemite is doing a superb job adapting to the many Covid-19 related challenges. The permit process is entirely online and via Zoom with very few hiccups given that they’ve just been open for a few days.

I also had an opportunity to chat (via phone) with the staff at the Stanislaus National forest about permits for a future trip. They are to be commended for how well they’ve adapted to the new circumstances. I think the new processes are much more streamlined.

@ryan no I would not wear a mask, I would self-quarantine as that is the most effective way to limit exposure. Most of the masks folks wear are useless when it comes to viruses anyway. when and if I were to wear a mask to protect myself or others it would have to be an N95 or surgical as they are the ones effective against viruses. I have a small stockpile of N95 for emergencies and if I decided to wear a mask it would be one of them.

We’ve cancelled our trip in August to Yellowstone, because we were planning to meet and host our two daughters there, and they would each have had to take at least two flights to get there.  Camping and backpacking don’t worry me nearly so much as flying on an airplane with crowds of other people.

We’ve done two backpacking trips already, one in the Sierra, and one in Lassen.  We saw very few people on the trail.  And we’ll do two more in the coming weeks, with what we expect will be similar “crowds.”

It isn’t the wilderness or the hikers that scare me–it’s flying.

I did a trip in the Trinity Alps.

Quite crowded, maybe more than normal.

It was easy to avoid sharing virus particles with people.

I did stop at the Trinity Center store.  There was a sign outside saying that masks were required.  The cashier was behind plastic.  I was the only one in the store but there was someone just before me.  Everyone wearing masks.  I got some ice and quickly got out.  Time is another factor – if you’re exposed for 15 minutes you’re more likely to get infected.

The Yellow Jacket Store was closed.  They’ve been marginal for years. just not enough people.  I’ve had good food there before.  Good after hiking a few days.  Marginal businesses are being killed by covid.

Too bad you have to fly to get to the Sierras, that would be tricky.

Arizona is another example of not wearing masks – getting over-run – forced to put in oppressive rules requiring masks

If we wore masks before getting over-run, it will never get so bad, that would be better

William

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/how-arizona-lost-control-of-the-epidemic/2020/06/25/f692a5a8-b658-11ea-aca5-ebb63d27e1ff_story.html

“Arizona has emerged as an epicenter of the early summer coronavirus crisis as the outbreak has expanded, flaring across new parts of the country and, notably, infecting more young people.

Maricopa County, which includes Phoenix, is recording as many as 2,000 cases a day, “eclipsing the New York City boroughs even on their worst days,” warned a Wednesday brief by disease trackers at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, which observed, “Arizona has lost control of the epidemic.”

But physicians, public health experts, advocates and local officials say the crisis was predictable in Arizona, where local ordinances requiring masks were forbidden until Gov. Doug Ducey (R) reversed course last week. State leaders did not take the necessary precautions or model safe behavior, these observers maintain, even in the face of compelling evidence and repeated pleas from authoritative voices.”

“At critical junctures, blunders by top officials undermined faith in the data purportedly driving decision-making, according to experts monitoring Arizona’s response. And when forbearance was most required, as the state began to reopen despite continued community transmission, an abrupt and uniform approach — without transparent benchmarks or latitude for stricken areas to hold back — led large parts of the public to believe the pandemic was over.”

“This week, Arizona reported not just a record single-day increase in new cases — with Tuesday’s tally reaching 3,591 — but also record use of inpatient beds and ventilators for suspected and confirmed cases. Public health experts warn that hospitals could be stretched so thin they may have to begin triaging patients by mid-July.

Soon, the only option might be “crisis standards of care,” said Will Humble, a former director of the Arizona Department of Health Services. “If you’re in a bed, normally they’ll keep you for a few days, but they’re going to send you home with oxygen.”

Okay, enough lecturing of William : )

“There’s a group of people who go around bragging that they’re practicing individual freedom by not wearing masks,” Riley said. “These people are not practicing freedom – they’re practicing pure selfishness.”

From Dr Lee Riley, an epidemiologist at the University of California, Berkeley.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/26/california-coronavirus-covid-19-cases

Unfortunately, there are too many people like William and Christopher in Maricopa County (where I live). It’s so simple to wear a mask.

The irony when William says “But, I’m still not going to wear a mask and follow the lemmings.” is that he probably heard this on Fox News or some other talk-show host.

William, it seems to me that you misunderstood what Ryan J was getting at. This article might help.

An extract: “…a study that followed up 37 asymptomatic people who had positive PCR tests. This showed they had detectable levels of the virus for longer than those who had symptoms. Asymptomatic people are therefore likely to be more contagious. We also know that pre-symptomatic people, those in the early days following infection with Sars-CoV-2, are also highly contagious. Because we are often not aware that we are infected, measures to ensure social distancing and face covering are crucial when it comes to protecting others.”

Not canceling any trip especially as I solo, but I do realize any travel may be “complicated”.  Plus keeping nimble as the political winds blow every which way as governors can enforce traveler quarantines with fines, rewards for turning in violators, etc..  (ask some Hawaii visitors).

There’s taking ones‘ own car, but, if getting pulled over, some states may require masks be kept in the car … does everyone know that?

All that said, don’t think we’ll return to 100% closure.  I can cook at home, but I have enchilada and fried chicken addictions to tend to best served in restaurants.  Now I’ll look at outdoor seating or peek inside to see if it’s not crowded if takeout isn’t an option.   Of course my coffee fix isn’t for my safety but the safety of society in general.   Still think everyone can be an adult and mask up if patronizing a business locally or on a road trip.

Here in the SW, seems masking up is becoming a serious requirement regardless of who is governor. I think wearing a mask hiking in rural areas is overkill for the virus, however (going to another state … sorry)

Add, that the price is businesses having to close again as is now happening in TX and FL

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-close-bars-limit-restaurant-dining-due-explosion-covid-19-n1232233

No enchiladas?  I’m not visiting anytime soon…

I take a mask when driving

I take one hiking but never need to use it.  Maybe if there was someone with a medical condition or something.

I won’t be wearing a mask in the backcountry as it should be easy enough to stay 6 feet away from everyone there, but will take one with me just in case.   I will be making up for traveling and for front country situations that have more traffic, and have more situations where staying six feet away may break down from time to time.

I’m not sure what the minimum time to create and fully test a vaccine is but my guess is we will be living with COVID-19 for some time, so we’d better figure out a “new normal” to keep our society and economy from completely collapsing.

One worry I have is with the rush to create and distribute a vaccine, will something get rushed to the market and administered to the entire population that could have detrimental effects?  I’m NOT an anti-vaccination person, in fact quite the opposite, but rushing something to the market could have adverse consequences too.

someone who knows more than me should comment, but…it may be relatively easy to produce a safe vaccine. After all, we’ve been producing flu vaccines for decades. any new vaccine will of course be tested for effectiveness. I think we all worry about possible long term issues. I do. BUT: it may be that a flu vaccine simply can’t or won’t produce long term issues. I mean, normal flu shots don’t. It’s dead covid bacteria or something, right?

What could possibly go wrong? We’ve done a bang up job so far….

I saw a news report about airlines using ultra violet light to clean planes–like a giant steripen all up an downs the aisles. so that may reduce some risk from flying.