- May 24, 2019 at 9:45 pm #3594459
Scheduling issues and other things have conspired to prevent us from doing the amount of shakedowns we really need. We’re trying to cram for the final, which is late August.
Yes, I know every stove is different, but could you help me out and tell me how many and what size canisters you hit the trail with? How many meals do you get out of a canister.
I found our old windscreen today. I brought it home and was able to boil about 5-6 quarts in about 13 minutes. How much water should I expect to need to boil for 10 people?
I need a starting point. I’m taking a personal stove to make coffee, so we’ll have some extra fuel for that if we are a little off.May 25, 2019 at 12:47 am #3594484
If you look at the opening sequence on their video Philmont Backcountry Cooking Method you’ll see they use repackaged Mountain House meals. Those packages are the same size as the ones you can get at REI. The 4.8oz Beef Stroganoff shown uses 2 cups of water and feeds 2.5 people according to the label. Let’s assume they give you 5 packages for your crew of 10 people, that means you’ll need to boil 10 cups or about 2.5L just for the food. You’ll want to boil an extra liter or two if you plan to wash dishes in warm water. So, while I can’t tell you the amount of fuel you’ll need I’d plan on boiling about 4L of water.
By the way, the time it takes to boil water is going to be different at altitude. At 9-10k feet the water boiling point is around 195F so that should speed up the process ;)
Hope that helps!May 25, 2019 at 1:45 am #3594497
So really, a 6 quart pot would work just fine. Thanks!Jun 5, 2019 at 2:28 pm #3596353James ABPL Member
Yes, I’m also looking for guidance on number of canisters (8oz / medium size) to buy at ToTT. I figure we’ll boil 3.5-4 quarts of water 11 times (10 dinners, plus 1 breakfast with our Ranger).
Also need to account for coffee in the Jetboil. We have three Advisors who drink coffee. Figure one 12-oz cup a day for each.
I’m going to take a wild guess and say 5 canisters should be more than enough.
Can anybody share their experiences? How many did you use?
We were told by our council rep. that canisters will only be available at camping HQ, Ponil, Ute Gulch, Phillips Junction, and Baldy Town. Only Ute Gulch is vaguely convenient, as we’ll be spending night 10 at Cimmaroncito. Would definitely prefer not to have to go out of our way to get more fuel.Jun 5, 2019 at 2:43 pm #3596355
This is a good question for your ranger however might I suggest using a digital scale to weigh a canister then simulating a dinner (or making coffee) by boiling the water you need and finally re-weighing the canister?
Because the boiling point of water lowers with altitude doing the above isn’t perfect but it should be enough of a swag to get you close.Jun 5, 2019 at 2:51 pm #3596357
Yeah, still looking into this. If you’re right about the places to purchase canister fuel, we have day 5 at Ponil and day 10 at Baldy Town. We’re doing trek 12, which is in the North.
If I could get advice to get us to day 5 confidently without overloading, that would help. Even with different stoves, I’d really like to hear how much past crews used.
Two of us are coffee drinkers. I’ll have my own little stove and fuel for us. My 550ml mug should be good for making 2 cups of coffee.
I might try those cold brew instant Starbucks Via packs to supplement the morning hot coffee.
Please chime in with your crew’s canister usage.Jun 5, 2019 at 3:08 pm #3596361David YBPL Member
@moonshineLocale: Mid Tenn
Every three, four or five days, depending your itinerary, you will pass a backcountry commissary where you pick-up food for the next leg of your trek, Baldy Town, Ponil, Ute Gulch, Apache Springs or Phillips Junction. All the backcountry commissaries also have a trading post where you can buy replacement fuel, white gas and popular brands of canister fuel, and lots of other gear items; moleskin, shoe glue, etc.
Check your itinerary to see how many days between your commissary pick-ups. Start with more than enough fuel to get you through to your first commissary. From that you should be able to judge how many replacements you need to the next and so on.
“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” MoonshineJun 5, 2019 at 3:11 pm #3596362Casey BowdenBPL Member
@clbowdenLocale: Berkeley Hills
No Philmont experience to offer, but regarding fuel, I determine what size canister to bring knowing that I use about 5 grams of fuel per cup of boiled water. Note that this is for hiking in the Sierra’s and actually doing some cooking. If you are just boiling water with a Jetboil you can bring less fuel.Jun 5, 2019 at 5:51 pm #3596383James ABPL Member
Hmm, our itinerary shows food pickups at basecamp (of course), Apache Springs, and Sawmill.
If they have canisters for sure at all those places, then I’m not going to worry a whole lot. I think I’d just carry three at all times to be on the safe side.Jun 5, 2019 at 6:05 pm #3596384
We have itinerary 23. We have food pickups at basecamp, Ring Place, Baldy Town and Ponil.
Based on the above we won’t have an opportunity to buy more fuel until our 8th day on trail.
Any idea why we have a food pick up on our last day (day 11) on trail? It seems silly to get just a day’s worth of food. Surely, if we have a food pick up at Baldy Town on day 9 they could give us enough to finish out the trek?!?Jun 5, 2019 at 6:59 pm #3596392
HQ, Day 5 in Ponil, Day 8 in Ponil, Day 10 in Baldy Town for us.Jun 5, 2019 at 10:17 pm #3596428Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
My 550ml mug should be good for making 2 cups of coffee.
I would say that heating water in a 550 mL mug would make enough for ONE cup of coffee!
CheersJun 6, 2019 at 1:11 am #3596456Neal SSpectator
Optimus Vega Rolling Boil Test
Whirleypop pot with lid / no windscreen / upright canister / 4L water
= 3.4 boils
= 63 min burn time
Whirleypop pot with lid / no windscreen / inverted canister / 4L water
= 2.7 boils
= 40.5 min burn timeJun 6, 2019 at 3:05 am #3596469Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
You are getting a significantly shorter run time and fewer boils with the canister inverted? Sounds to me as though you might be losing (wasting) a lot of heat up the side of the pot.
Try running at a somewhat lower power. Longer boil time, yes, but greater fuel economy.
CheersJun 6, 2019 at 11:43 am #3596493James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
Neal, that is odd. I would suggest the same fuel (upright or inverted) would produce the same result. It depends on what you want to optimize: Time or Fuel economy. I get about 7-10g for 500ml water with Roger’s V1 stove, using a 1qt (not quite a liter) Grease Pot with heat exchanger built in and windscreen…depends on altitude, water temp, etc.
You can fill the pot to just below full. That is enough water for three cups or ~900ml (about three 10oz cups of coffee) at 12-15gm fuel per pot. I just make a cowboy coffee dumping in 4-5 heaping tbsp of ground coffee into the water, bringing it to a boil. Turning the stove off and wait about 3 min and start pouring rather carefully to keep the grounds in the pot. DO NOT LET IT SIT LONGER THAN 5min! It gets bitter. All but the last oz or so is usable. I don’t carry ground coffee very often. It is just a lot heavier, but one of my daughters really likes fresh black coffee.Jun 6, 2019 at 12:15 pm #3596498Ken LarsonBPL Member
@kenlarsonLocale: Western MichiganJun 6, 2019 at 12:37 pm #3596499
So, if we start with the crew carrying three 8oz canisters and I have a 8oz for adult coffee (looking at larger mugs) we should not have trouble making it to the day 5 food restock. Of course we are emphasizing that the stove only runs when heating water and is shut off immediately when done.Jun 6, 2019 at 1:50 pm #3596505David YBPL Member
@moonshineLocale: Mid Tenn
Brad P, you’ve got it. This ain’t rocket surgery or brain scientist, just a trip to Philmont.
If you’ve been training for Philmont you should already have a good idea of how much fuel it takes to cook a couple of meals for your full crew. Looking at your itinerary you can tell how many meals need to be cooked between commissaries. Do the math.
If you have a mishap or miss count and start running low on fuel, stop boiling water for dishwashing. Measure and only boil the water according to the meal packet recipes, about one cup per camper, or three Nalgenes for a crew of 12.
And, if you are carrying another canister for adult coffee then you have a spare back-up.
But, if you haven’t been training, well good luck.
“Philmont should be enjoyed, not endured.” MoonshineJun 12, 2019 at 1:43 pm #3597363Neal SSpectator
I did not use a windscreen so I’m sure I lost some heat during my test.
Ran both full open (or near it for inverted due to flame control) specifically to reduce variables and be conservative.
The burn times track with the stove datasheet. Upright is 1400W, inverted is 3700W. Those extra Watts and winter performance come with a price.Jun 20, 2019 at 1:05 pm #3598547Gerry HBPL Member
@geeteehLocale: USA Mid-Atlantic
According to the current ToTT pages, canister fuel is NOT stocked at every commissary.
Canister fuel is only available at he following commissaries, according to the Tooth of time website (http://www.toothoftimetraders.com/canister-fuel-at-philmont/231/dept )
Jun 20, 2019 at 1:45 pm #3598554
- Tooth of Time Traders (Base Camp)
- Ponil (North Country)
- Baldy Town (North Country)
- Cimarroncito (Central Country)
- Phillips Junction (South Country)
We have Ponil Day 5, Ponil Day 8 and Baldy day 10 for food pickup. Longest stretch is at the beginning, so I think starting with three 8 oz canisters will be good.Jun 20, 2019 at 5:26 pm #3598583Gerry HBPL Member
@geeteehLocale: USA Mid-Atlantic
12 Day Iitinerary #7.
The closest we get to Phillips Junction is over a mile (each way) in the middle of trail day 4 (Ranch day 5), then go to Cimarroncito on trail day 9 (Ranch day 10).
So we are going “full pessimist” on canisters. Thanks Ken Larson for the canister calculator link!Jun 20, 2019 at 6:07 pm #3598595Tim PBPL Member
Thank you for the posts. We are also on itinerary 23. We have one canister stove and one white gas, so I think we will go with 2 canisters and a bit of white gas. I know it is not BPL, but that’s the gear we have.Jun 20, 2019 at 6:45 pm #3598601Bruce TolleyBPL Member
@btolleyLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
@ Brad the estimates above of 8 to 10 grams of isobutane to bring 500 ml of water to boil are right on the money (with variation due to wind and cooler ambient temperatures.) Also kudos to the reference to the Mercator calculator.
With Scouts, other efficiency factors to teach before or at Philmont (besides all the fundamental BSA safety rules and chemical fuels protocol)
Jun 20, 2019 at 7:03 pm #3598604
- Do not light the stove until the water is ready to be placed on the stove
- Use a windscreen
- Use a lid
- Watch for the rolling boil to begin, then turn off the stove.
- Caveat: Often I find Scouts need to be shown what a rolling boils is and taught how to determine when it has started despite the steam occluding their view of the surface of the water. Usually once they get the hang of it, they can determine the rolling boil just by the amount of steam being generated. To heat the water past boiling just wastes fuel.
I have been teaching them that the stove should only be burning when you’re trying to boil water. I’ve explained the consequences of failing to do that.
We have a windscreen and a lid for the pot. We’re taking two, 6 quart pots.
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