How did your DCF shelter age (and expire)?

[J-L]

Its interesting how some folks get 5000 miles or so on 0.51 Zpacks tents while it dies for others with only 50 nights etc. Bad batch of DCF or user error?

Mileage is a poor estimate for how much a tent has been used. Number of nights and the weather conditions are much more important.

With DCF prices increasing again for 2022, I think we are reaching a point where a DCF shelter won’t make sense for the vast majority of backpackers/thru hikers. There are too many downsides IMO: bulk, cost, limited lifespan. Even now, I think most backpackers or thru hikers would be better served by a silpoly Duplex. For example, from MLD’s facebook page recently:

2022 DCF OUTLOOK
Global supply chain issues will continute to be a significant factor for outdoor gear though out 2022.
1: We have .5, .67, and .75 on hand. Our .75 may run out by March. .5 and .67 may run out around MAY.
2: Dyneema has significantly raised DCF prices for all orders scheduled to be shipped in 2022.
3: DCF supply for all gear makers will be reduced signifactly in 2022. Most companies will not be able to get as much raw fabric as they want.
4: Our OCT 2021 order is scheduled to be delivered in AUG 2022.
5: Our prices for DCF shelters must increase to cover costs.
6: If you are planning on a DCF product in 2022, order soon and be prepared to wait.

[JCH]

Ah DCF…I knew thee well.

On to the next big thing…

[Brad W]

@John – two points for me that are irritating character of DCF, bulk and cost. The bulk when compared to silnylon is just way too much. I love being able to really pack away my silnylon tarp and tents-it’s crazy how compact they can become. Cost-it’s just becoming out of reach for most-$500-800 for single wall shelter that may only be a couple oz’s lighter than it’s ***nylon counterpart and cost more than double doesn’t seem worth it to me anymore-and this is from someone who couldn’t wait to get a $600 DCF tent.

[Murali C]

John – I quoted miles as I didn’t have number of nights he used it on trail. I was thinking of Neemor and his Solplex. You are right – number of nights are more important. But that number is hard to come by. Darwin on the trail recently completed his CDT in 109 days. He used the Altaplex which he used on CT and a few other hikes. He doesn’t cowboy camp and uses his tent every night. So, I reckon he probably used it for 125 nights or so on his 0.51 Alptaplex tent.

I have a Pocket tarp which is extremely compact and combine that with a bath tub made out of 1 osy DCF – I can ride out any storm in that thing. I also have Altaplex tarp which I used on the CT for 25 nights (a different Altaplex camo tarp PCT Washington) or so. I have had a Duplex which I used on JMT/Big Bend before selling it as I wanted more compact shelters. The resale values on DCF is awesome! It is almost like a rental when you buy, used it and sell it!

I like DCF tents and 5 osy for backpacks. They can last a long time if you take good care of them. I will keep using my Pocket tarp and Altaplex tarp as long as they last.

But yes, as Lord Tennyson in his “Brook” poem said:

“men may come and men may go,

I go on forever”.

Similarly,

“Fabrics  may come and fabrics may go,

but nylon is forever”

(Nobody can beat a DX210 nylon gridstop for a backpack! – no experience with Silnylon tents to make such statements:-))

[obx hiker]

Silnylon or silpoly? What are the differences?

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

“two points for me that are irritating character of DCF, bulk and cost.”
The bulk issue is primarily an issue with the thicker DCF used for floors. That stuff is super thick, and in my opinion doesn’t make sense because it adds a lot of bulk and cost to the tent without offering a benefit since it’s not lighter than a woven that offers similar or better performance in the metrics that matter (abrasion, puncturing, waterproofness over time). The regular DCF used for tent flys and canopies isn’t actually that bulky. With our upcoming DCF tents we are still using a woven floor because we think that makes more sense, and it gives a packed size no larger than our normal 2P.

“Silnylon or silpoly? What are the differences?”
Check out this article which covers that in depth:
https://durstongear.com/materials

“Its interesting how some folks get 5000 miles or so on 0.51 Zpacks tents while it dies for others with only 50 nights etc. Bad batch of DCF or user error?”
I think there are a few issues at play:
1) Whether the unreinforced bias stretch leads to a failure depends on how much stress/tension there is. If someone is pitching there tent tight or using it in challenging conditons then you may see stress failures/delamination fairly quick, whereas if someone isn’t pitching it super tight and the conditions aren’t too harsh, the this issue may never happen.

2) DSM has been steadily improving DCF. Back 4-5 years ago they used to use their “K” type mylar but in recent years that has been replaced with an “E” type mylar where I don’t know the difference but the E type is less prone to micropunctures and delamination. That doesn’t solve the strain, but it does make the material a bit less affected by it.

[J-L]

@ Murali C: yea, Darwin is probably one of the best examples of a successful DCF tent user. I think he knows how to take care of his gear. And he also seems physically fit enough to hike to more protected pitch spots or into town if needed.

The bulk issue is there even for 0.51oz DCF. My ZPacks 8×10 DCF tarp is bulkier and more annoying to pack up than my old 8×10 30D silnylon tarp. If you take the time to carefully fold and roll DCF, you can get very close to silnylon. My 8×10 DCF tarp is about 8 years old now and has been used 40-50 nights. It’s not my favorite shelter due to the hassle of packing it up. The material near the corner tie-outs is starting to look stretched, but not near failing point. If buying another flat tarp, I would not go DCF.

[dirtbag]

Silpoly for tarps. Forget that cuben fiber! Way overpriced already and way too bulky to pack! It was the next best thing and everyone bit the bullet!  The reality is.. Silpoly is just better and affordable.

[Brad W]

I agree with John on the bulk, even the thinner DCF is bulkier compared to similar sized silnylon. You can really cram sil into a tight space-not happening with DCF.

[obx hiker]

So what’s the ‘shelf life’ of the mylar laminate used in dcf. Silicon seems to last longer than either the urethane or PEU coatings described in Dan’s linked article which I found very informative.

BTW I’m not sold on the packing advantages of nylon or polyester being some sort of major advantage.  At least dcf is actually dry in so far as water absorbed into the fibers. Polyester also isn’t supposed to absorb much water. Does the silicon application to nylon keep it from absorbing water and weight. Based on reports about sagging evidently not.

Here’s a photo of my old hexamid in .51 dcf. The S-21 camera lens distorts the image a little. It’s actually 5.5″ long and 2.25 inches in diameter. Small enough. My duomid also rolls up into a small enough package. Both are also thoroughly dry insofar as absorbed moisture.

Silpoly does seem to have a lot going for it. Enough in some applications to compensate for the weight disadvantage and it evidently has an advantage over nylon with relation to water (more weight!) absorption. Plus sure beats dcf for price!

OK I couldn’t download the @ 10 meg .jpg image of a ZPacks hexamid rolled up into a 2.25″ x 5.5″ roll. Weird. Anyway way smaller than a beer can.

[obx hiker]

OK the resize function on the photo editor wasn’t working properly. Retry: Thought 10 mb sounded too big. 17.3 kb more like it

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

I will be sad when DCF is no longer used for things. I like to make things and I found that DCF is pretty fun to work with. It sews easily and you can tape things together and you can do both. You can poke a hole for a drawstring and the hole doesn’t need to be a button hole or melted. It just stays.

[obx hiker]

^^ Yes and your hacks on the pocket tarp have been interesting and informative. I just might order a yard of dcf and add some quasi doors to the beak of my old hexamid.

[Murali C]

Dan is right – the reason for the bulk is 1 osy ground sheet with the netting etc. Duplex is huge. But, if you compare tarps – they are not that bad. My pocket tarp is tiny and so is the ground sheet. I have the opposite problem – I cannot fill my MLD Prophet anymore and am going to 38 L backpacks with the pocket tarp and dcf bath tub groundsheet. For me bulk is not a problem. But yeah, there is no comparison between a silpoly tarp and a DCF tarp. Borah gear’s 7×9 tarp is 98 bucks at 9.1 oz (no idea if that includes cordage) while zpacks 7×9 tarp is 5.1 oz and 249 bucks. Cost wise, DCF is at a great disadvantage. But, I think everybody wants lower weight at any cost!

[Monte Masterson]

I get what people are saying about the price, bulk and shorter life span (maybe) of DCF, but to dismiss its advantages is living in denial. To me the low water absorption and strength of DCF are its best properties, even more so than its low weight. I’m testing a Dutchware 1.2 oz Xenon Sil Wide (silpoly) tarp now and yes it absorbs less water than silnylon, but it does not compare to DCF. And any notion that a 20D silpoly stacks up in strength to .74 DCF on any level is fantasyland. No even remotely close. .51 DCF is stronger than 20D silpoly though not like .74. And 30D MTN silnylon 6.6 can compare to .74 DCF, but if you get caught out in ferocious gale force winds in a 20D silpoly shelter, you will likely suffer shipwreck, whereas the .74 DCF can handle it with no problem, at least with proper construction and design. Keepin it real. Ron at MLD prides himself on building bomber shelters that can stand up to powerful winds and you’ll notice that he only uses 6.6 silnylons (not silpoly) or DCF, and he recommends .74 for winter conditions. I use 7D to 20D silnylons and silpolys when weather predictions don’t include storms, but when they do I pack a Solomid or a 30D silnylon 6.6 tarp with bonded reinforcements and burly stakes.

[Murali C]

Monte – you wouldn’t trust a Slingfin Splitwing UL tarp made of 10d 6.6 nylon with sil/sil coatings? The founder has worked for Northface, Sierra designs, Mountain Hardwear….just curious. They seem to know their stuff.

[Diane “Piper” Soini]

Yeah I really like how the DCF doesn’t absorb water. It dries pretty fast. My pocket tarp packs smaller than any other 1-person shelter I have. I also made a small flat tarp and it packs smaller than a 1-person tent.

[Monte Masterson]

Yea Murali I probably would trust it because of the aerodynamic shape and low profile of the Splitwing and the fact that it’s made with a very high quality 6.6 silnylon, even if it is only a 10d. But if it was a larger design that has flat wind catching panels I’d be afraid in big weather with a 10D silnylon, no matter high quality the material.

Edit to add: The Splitwing also has 30D silnylon tieout reinforcements which substantially ups its durability. I’ve always admired the tarp, it’s just so damn unstealthy.

[obx hiker]

^^ “damn unstealthy”.   One of these days why don’t you start a thread about stealth camping? I’m trying to be a life-long learner       ;)

[Murali C]

There is another version of that Slingfin tarp which is not orange:

https://www.stoneglacier.com/products/skyair-ult

[JCH]

^^ “another version of that Slingfin tarp”.  Is blue any better?  Trails are blazed in blue (and orange) to stand out.

Also, is that Slingfin marketing under another name or did someone copy the design…in exacting detail?

[Murali C]

I would think it is the same Slingfin being marketed in another name. Maybe light blue is better than orange:-)

[Sam Farrington]

OK, Dan, the DCF wth “E” mylar may be superior, but how can one be sure of purchasing it.  If I knew, would buy some and put it through its paces.

In the meantime, am still “in denial,” but admit to being just as hot for a sub half pound all-purpose tent as others.

BTW, is there any reason why Dyneema cannot be made into a fine thread that can be woven into an UL fabric?  Seem to recall that Spectra can, and it is very similar.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

All 0.5 and 0.8oz DCF switched to the “E” mylar a few years ago, while the heavier weights still use K.

You can see it in the product name. For example, on Ripstop by the Roll the 0.5oz stuff is labelled as CT1E.08 while the 1.4oz stuff is CT5K.18. The lighter stuff used to be CT1K.08. Basically they only make the thinner outer mylar in E now, while the thicker outer mylar is K – perhaps because the E formulation isn’t needed when the mylar is thicker.
https://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/dyneema-composite-fabric

[J-L]

Some talk about fabric strength of silpoly above, but I think the biggest indicators of it being a suitable shelter fabric are: the X-Mid, Trekkertent, and Yama Mountain Gear. All of those companies/shelters are used in harsh weather. Maybe not full on 4 season mountaineering conditions, but probably about what most backpackers will ever encounter. So maybe all you need is proper construction/design. I also realize that not all silpolys are equal.

I do think an interesting fabric could be a polyester and nylon blend. Polyester base with nylon grid stop? It could either be the best or worst of both worlds :) I remember Wilderness Logics was working on this a few years ago.

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