How critical is AWD for getting to trailheads and dispersed campsites?

Unless the AWD allows you to lock the front and rear axles together, you do not always have good control.

Toyota short wheel base diesel Landcruiser, expensive diamond chains on the front for steering, common ladders chains on the back for push.

We would always have these chains on board in the winter – plus a large 8-ton winch with a long cable on the front. All have been well-used.

Cheers

Nice!  Love the LC.

My Tacoma has a rear locker only but does have Crawl Control.  With snow tires, it is a veritable mountain goat.  The importance of ground clearance cannot be denied and there are no FWD vehicles where I go. Snow tires or not!

You guys sure go through more vehicular effort to get to a trailhead than I do. In Arizona and Utah, my Subaru with A/T tires has been able to get me to most trailheads. When the road is rough enough, I park and walk the rest of the way. Usually that just requires 1-2 miles of walking, with the longest being 3.5 miles so far. Even when I lived in Oregon and had a less capable FWD Rav4, I was able to get most trailheads with chains.

It would be nice to have a more off-road capable vehicle, but it never seemed the worth the trade off in terms of gas mileage, cost, and on-pavement driving.

An alternative perspective…

I have not found the lack of AWD, 4WD, or ground clearance to be an issue at all. It simply means I walk further, hike/bike, or get creative with route planning in other ways. While getting a 4X has always been appealing and might happen at some point in the future, thus far I’ve never been able to justify the cost, excess fuel, etc. for a vehicle that gets used for that specific purpose for only 10% of its life at best.

Living in Southern California (good weather, no mud/snow)  likely has a lot to do with this, but it has worked in other states just fine; I’ve done quite a few trips around the Grand Canyon and in Utah where I used a mountain bike to bridge the gap between a trailhead and what my car was capable of.

I’ve found high MPG as an outdoorsperson on a budget more valuable. Los Angeles to southwest Utah on $40 isn’t too shabby, nor is LA to Helena round trip for $180.

I am referring more to winter escapades in the Canadian North.

No, you would not just “hike further” in these situations but I like your thought process Craig.

Mental note:  must move to Arizona.

No doubt David. If I lived in MT it would be a different story.

Southern CA is a weird place. I’ve got more brush marks and rock dings on my Honda Fit than most 4x4s I park next to…

Chains all 4’s Roger! When you have got to get where you are going. That’s like the ambulances run in the California Sierra (think Donner Party and 25 feet of snow in one storm).

Another traction item not yet mentioned is type of suspension. The little old WWII war jeeps, some Nissan 4×4 Pickups and some Honda CRV’s have independent suspension on all four wheels and crab in for good traction if a tire goes in a hole or soft surface. The old VW bugs had that on the back two driving wheels and were one of the reasons they made good dune bug-gies. I imagine there are other cars with that too? They weren’t as popular as you would think in 4×4’s as it made adding a lift kit more complex.

My TRD Rav is a capable off road vehicle. Decent enough clearance without a lift kit (though I do plan on lifting it much later this year) and different driving ‘modes’ for various situations, including a crawl mode that works quite well, though it’s intended for steep downhills. Not a true 4WD off-road vehicle, but close enough. And I’m currently getting over 29mpg.

While “choice-supportive bias” is widely seen on BPL with respect to gear purchases, it is especially prevalent in this thread.  It seems that everyone finds the vehicle they purchased to be perfect for getting them to their chosen locations.  :-)

Not really.   I wouldn’t recommend my Jeep for most people.

” It seems that everyone finds the vehicle they purchased to be perfect for getting them to their chosen locations.  :-)”

Is that not how it should be?

Craig,

several years ago I went hiking in Escalante and had rented a Hyundai Elantra.  I went bounding down sand filled trails without a care in the world until I saw that everyone else at the trailhead had a jacked up Jeep.  I received some strange looks.  I found the best approach was speed and hope for the best.

That little car did just fine.

I should add that the Shortie shown above is used a LOT around the farm as a tractor. Our real tractor has a slasher on the back, and taking it off is hard work, so … not so wasted after all.

The photo of the Shortie above was about 1.5 hr walking/skiing from our summer parking spot (some PP), way up in the mountains. But even in summer time when driving is easier, our parking spot is at least 1 hr from the asphalt. Where it gets amusing is when the weather turns in summer for a day or two, and we get this:

Yeah, end of summer, and some way to go.
Yes, there is a 4WD track under the snow on the far side, provided you know where it is. The land to either side of the track is usually boggy, and ‘not a good idea’.

Cheers

We went from minivan to Subaru Outback.  I miss the van for it’s spaciousness, but for peace of mind for driving in the snow and adverse conditions, Subaru wins hands down.

Lisa, it seems like a really good plan to stick with your Forester.  That is a pretty capable vehicle that sounds like it’s getting you most of the places you want to go.  I have driven 4Runners for 30 years and like the ground clearance and 4WD capability, but I probably wouldn’t buy a new one now:  too expensive, too luxurious.  The next adventure vehicle will probably be a Tacoma with a topper and sleeping platform/storage.

Some of the electric trucks and SUV’s (I’m talking about YOU, Rivian) are intriguing, but the price has to be affordable, and there is the problem of range.  Three hundred miles between charges is kind of my minimum requirement.  Right now, it’s so easy and mindless to find a gas station.  The same cannot yet be said of charging stations, especially in the hinterlands.   I don’t want to plan vacations around charging station availability.  Someday it will be simpler.

I’m usually on the FWD hatchback with bike inside team Craig, but you must admit that biking that bison up from the Lake Abundance TH would have been a bit much.

My pontifications:

-Hatchback plus mountain bike gets the job done 96% of the time, and there is a very strong ethical argument to any more vehicle not being fair means or justifiable., winter or summer  Little differences in wheelbase, straddle, and suspension tune make a massive difference on dirt roads.  We have a Saturn/Opal now which is brilliant.  Our old Jetta was horrendous off pavement.

-Suby AWD is substantially more functional than any other system I’ve driven.  My sense is with otherwise identical vehicles (a useless hypothetical) it is functionally identical to 4WD without lockers.  Suby plus blizzaks is an outrageously fun combo on snowy dirt roads.

-If you are gonna have proper 4WD get chains for all fours and make sure you have clearance for them.  Mud probably moreso than snow.  Astounds me how many truck aficionados in the lower 48 are hesitant about chains.  My Xterra would have spent the winter down Hole in the Rock road years ago without them.  (Or I should have been less dumb about trailhead selection.)

I’m usually on the FWD hatchback with bike inside team Craig, but you must admit that biking that bison up from the Lake Abundance TH would have been a bit much.

Or the stuff of legends? ;)

One photo I really regret not taking on that trip was sleeping in the back of my Fit in a turnout somewhere in Idaho with two coolers, 100# of meat, and a yard sale of gear strewn everywhere…

My students know I’m an outdoorsman. They are also very disappointed when they learn I don’t drive an obnoxious $60,000 lifted 4×4. They’re still learning ; )

I’ll put in a plug for the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 9 studded winter tires I had installed on my AWD RAV4 last month.  I’d had studded Hakkapeliitta 4’s although at the end of their thread life and these were a distinct improvement (over already very capable snow tires).  Not just comparing the 9s to the 4s but the 9s to seemingly everything else on the road.  I don’t drive fast.  Nor do I drive fast for the conditions.  If I slip around even a little bit, I slow down.  But on a recent 1100-mile round trip around Alaska swinging back and forth from through 15F to 41F, packed snow, ice, and 2-3 inches of newly fallen packed snow; there were lots of vehicles putzing along at 35-40 mph as the snow was coming down while 55-60 felt fine to me.

I had all my survival and emergency gear in duffles lashed down in the back (so it can’t become a 40 mpg missile to my head), never let the tank get below 1/2 and my podcasts loaded up in advance.  At times Saint Elias and Denali were out.  I enjoy a good winter road trip like that (and got paid for it).

I found your perfect vehicle!!

( only 29k on Craigslist)

2009 General Dynamics ITV M1161 Growler Light Strike Vehicle. 4X4, high and low range transfer case, rear wheel steering, fully independent Firestone air suspension, 3 ride height settings as well as individual corner controls for vehicle leveling and rock crawling control, 4 speed automatic transmission with an 85mph top speed, on board air compressor with automatic tire pressure control for inflating and deflating tires for different terrain, seats 4, 4 rifle mounts, duel fuel tanks, traction control, Wilwood disk brakes, MWM 4 cylinder turbo diesel engine, 24v and 12v electrical systems. Very fun capable off road 4X4 vehicle, great running condition with no mechanical problems. Would make an excellent ranch truck! Ready to hit the trails and find adventure!

a 40 mpg missile

Our missiles gotta be eco-friendly too nowadays?

Our missiles gotta be eco-friendly too nowadays?
Nah, just ‘back-of-the-head’ friendly.

Cheers

…on board air compressor with automatic tire pressure control for inflating and deflating tires for different terrain, seats 4, 4 rifle mounts, duel fuel tanks, traction control, Wilwood disk brakes, MWM 4 cylinder turbo diesel engine, 24v and 12v electrical systems…

….and they forgot the roof and walls! Looks positively dreadful for 3AM winter drives to the trailhead or mid-August noon-time jaunts in the Mojave. I bet those vinyl seats and metal fixin’s burn like a $#@%$#!!!.

Now I’ve never been a soldier, but all the soldiers I know tell me that the military has never been very big on employee comfort.

Many of my peakbagger friends like the Rav4 for high round clearance and spaciousness, and for me, the plug-in hybrid Rav4 could satisfy my desire to avoid carbon in the city. FWD, AWD, etc are distant second considerations. We mostly go on bad dirt roads with desert-ty brush that leads to serious pin-striping.

Not all AWD systems are the same for the same manufacturer.  Subaru currently has 4 and they vary in degree of effectiveness.  Toyota as well.

“Not all AWD systems are the same for the same manufacturer.”

+1.  David beat me to it.

My experience has been with Toyota so I’ll defer Subaru specific tech talk to someone else.  In the Toyota ecosystem and in certain models like the RAV4, Tacoma, and 4Runner, they offer multi terrain select.  It seems to be more than a marketing scheme and actually changes the how much/little your wheels slip in different conditions, because sometime you need maximum power to the wheels, and other times you need just enough.   The RAV4 AWD system modulates how power is distributed from FWD on dry asphalt to AWD on slippery roads really well, so not only are you getting better traction in unique off road situations, but optimizing your fuel economy where your spend most of your time, on road.

“I’ve found high MPG as an outdoorsperson on a budget more valuable. Los Angeles to southwest Utah on $40 isn’t too shabby, nor is LA to Helena round trip for $180.”

This benefit cannot be overstated and is without a doubt the most limiting aspect of my Jeep.  The problem is twofold, 1) it increases my cost to travel, and 2) it reduces my range.

TL/DR better fuel economy means more time playing in the backcountry and less time sorting out the care and feeding of your vehicle.

Longwinded version:

The benefit of being able to drive more miles for less money is self evident, so I’m just going to focus on the logistics of refueling a vehicle when traveling on and off road.

Let’s compare Doug’s 14.5 gallon tank, 28 mpg combined, and 406 mile range in his RAV4 TRD Off-Road to the 20 gallon tank, 13 mpg combined, and 260 mile range in my Jeep Wrangler.  Doug gets 146 more miles on a tank of gas with 5.5 fewer gallons.  A five gallon Jerry can gives Doug an additional 140 miles; I only get an additional 65 miles with the same jerry can.

If you’re never more than 50 miles from a gas station, you may be wondering what the big deal is.  If you’re like me and are looking at driving routes that may be hundreds of miles long in the back country, I’m not just looking at the distance of the route, but the distance between gas stations.  When the nearest gas stations are more than 30 miles from both ends of a route, I’m now only working with 200 miles of backroads travel with the fuel in my tank.  Since I always need to budget a 50 mile reserve, that 200 miles of potential travel is now 150.

With only a 260 mile range in my Jeep, it’s not difficult for me to find myself in a situation where I have to consider bringing extra fuel.  The extra 146 miles at Doug’s disposal is huge here.

I don’t think Doug will disagree that my Jeep is a much more capable vehicle off road and when the snow starts to build up, but that’s only comparing the vehicle on a single metric and for 1% of the usage, and in conditions that can be avoided most of the time.  For the other 99% of the time, the RAV4 is tough to beat.

All that being said, there’s something wonderful about being able to drive past the gate keepers that prevent less capable vehicles from accessing the country you’d like to visit in solitude.

If you really want the best of all worlds, buy a RAV4 so you can enjoy the great fuel economy and comfort, and have a buddy with a Jeep who is willing to drive ahead of you when the snow is getting deep so he can beat the trail down for you and keep you from getting high centered.