Freestanding > Non-Freestanding Tents??

“… any condensation will simply splash on the netting, and then on one’s sleeping bag.”
” …the inner tent must be able to block the wind (and spin-drift and falling condensation)”

Not sure why the outer tent or fly will not perform these functions. It always has for me, until one started leaking in wind driven rain, and then I replaced the whole tent, which was wearing out. With the improvement in fabric coatings, this has not happened these days. So there is nothing splashing on the inner tent, or blowing against it, like fine snow or sand. So I don’t have to rely on either a solid or mesh inner tent for such protection.

With a good outer or fly, a mesh wall will still do more than keep out pests, but only if it is strung taut inside the tent with some good separation from the outer. Then one will not contact the condensation. Also, horizontal or near horizontal surfaces must be designed out of the outer shape so that condensation will not drip, especially when buffeted by winds or the force of rain pounding against the outer. And there must be good venting to also limit condensation. All these and other factors must be considered, and require a lot of thought.

Unfortunately, reading this thread gives the impression that the above design features and quality materials are not always present, especially after the tent has aged a bit. That is not a surprise, considering that careful design and quality materials cost more for manufacturers, even though the retail prices keep increasing.

But my own experience has been that thoughtful design and quality materials are not just wishful thinking.

Also agree with Dan that differing opinions in this and similar threads are often influenced by conditions in one’s locale. Bill Bryson’s book, ‘In a Sunburned Country,” gave me the impression that hiking in the high summer is not so great in Australia, making winter trips more attractive. While for me, in the northern reaches of New England as well as the southern Rockies, late summer is the premium time to go packing, at least for now.

But junky gear is also a root factor for why some folks get wet and some don’t.

SpinDrift’s article is well-written and to the point.

Cheers

Not sure why the outer tent or fly will not perform these functions.
Oh, there are very good reasons why the fly does not (can not) always perform these functions.

Wind: you have to experience wind at -10 C to understand this one. Even a gentle breeze drifting through the tent through the mesh can be … distressing. A full fabric inner tent blocks such breezes and can make a 5 C difference in static temperature as well.

Spindrift: you really have to experience this to understand it. It can get in through any tiny hole or through the tiny gap between the fly and the snow surface. Very few ‘mesh-tents’ have ground flaps or sod cloths to keep it out, and building walls around your tent does not work for long. The wind erodes the snow blocks away.

Falling condensation: this is not a function of the fly material at all. It happens even with perfect fly material. When the moist air from your body hits the fly at -10 C, it condenses. OK, at -10 C it will also freeze onto the fly. But if the fabric is at, say, 0 C, the water vapour will condense and be a thin film of water. When the wind rattles the fly, or heavy drops of rain slam into the outside of the fly, water is shaken off the from the inside to fall on the inner tent. If that is mesh, the spatter will go straight through it for the next few hours. You will get very wet. If the inner tent is a tightly-woven fabric with a good DWR, the drops of water will roll down the outside of the inner tent to the ground, and you will stay dry.

If the conditions where you are camping are not that severe, then you may not need a double-skin tent. For three-season use I have a single-skin tent which works just fine.

hiking in the high summer is not so great in Australia, making winter trips more attractive.
Mid-summer is not attractive at all: we tend to shut down for that period. BORING! Spring and Autumn are great for walking, while winter is for snow (if we still get some).

Different parts of America – different conditions. Many areas will never see the conditions I am describing.

Cheers

“Many areas will never see the conditions I am describing.”

Guess so, Roger.  As said, have not needed a solid inner to stay dry since began using best quality outers. And having done comfortably in some awful wind driven rain storms. Thank you for taking the time to describe the conditions in Australia.

The problem for me has been that very light mesh materials all seem to develop holes in the early life of the tent. So have had to go to heavier mesh, which weighs quite a bit more than, say, Rockywoods 7D nylon, a bit under 3/4 oz. So for that reason there is a temptation to try a breathable DWR solid inner because it is more durable. Like maybe the lighter RBTR ‘mountain’ fabrics. But I like the airflow with the meshes, so will probably stick with them for at least some of the inner on the next tent.

But agree with you in principle, and do not go tenting, especially in unprotected areas, in winter storms. And if I did, would certainly have a solid inner. But there are lots of other things to be done in the depth of winter.

One of the real pleasures in life:
A fine sunny morning (well, something like) in the snow, with a storm late in the afternoon, then finding a nice semi-sheltered campsite, getting the tent up, and diving inside – and getting changed into warm clothing. Followed by a hot drink of course.

‘semi-sheltered’: one of the curious things about our Alpine region is that while the valleys and plains may be wide open, the tops of any hills may be covered in Snow Gums. It is all to do with the way cold air settles at the lower levels, below the tops of the hills. Locally known as ‘Frost Hollows’. Get 3 – 4 m above the flat plain and the air warms up – slightly! So camping just a bit above the flat plain in among the Snow Gums can be a bit warmer (3 – 5 C?) than on the plain, and moderately sheltered to boot. sometimes – no choice.

Why is the storm nice? Fresh snow for skiing on next morning!

Cheers

First off, I’ll enthusiastically agree with Roger that if spindrift is a concern then you want a solid inner. No debate from me there. As such, I’ll focus my comments here on condensation specifically, as I think mesh can be designed to function well in that context.

It seems that a lot of manufacturers view mesh inners as simply bug netting, and thus give little thought to how mesh can combat condensation. Certainly it gets mentioned that mesh provides protection from contacting condensation, but far too often you see mesh inners deployed in designs where:
1) The gap between the mesh and fly is too small, or the mesh is limp (or both), so if you bump the mesh you easily bump the fly too.
2) This is made worse by nylon sagging. In many tents, such as the Big Agnes Fly Creek series, it’s almost impossible to keep the fly from sagging and sticking to the inner mesh on a heavy condensation night.
3) The roof of the fly uses relatively flat panels, so when you get heavy condensation here it will drip onto the mesh and splatter (as opposed to running down the inside of the fly).

It’s worth noting that #1 and #2 above are still issues even with a solid fabric inner – as is #3 to a lesser extent. So regardless of the type of inner material, a good design should minimize these issues.

Gaps, Taut Inners and Fly Sag
Most tent designs use a 3-6″ gap between the inner and fly. Here, a 3-4″ gap is usually too small. Nylon expands by about 3.5% when wet, so the longer sides of a tent can easily deflect inwards by 4″ and stick to the mesh. 6″ of gap is better, but is still problematic if the inner material (mesh or solid) isn’t tight or if the fly has long nylon sides that will sag a lot (of course guylines can combat this, but it wouldn’t be simpler/lighter to have a design that avoids this need). For these reasons, my tent uses a polyester fly to largely eliminate fabric sag, and then still has a 7″ gap in crucial areas (e.g. at the ends of the tent at the bottom, where a sleeping bag is likely to be pushing). Towards the top of the tent, less gap is needed, but it still has at least 4″, which in combination with the non-sag poly makes it very hard to accidentally contact the fly. The key points here are that canopy sag is avoided, and thought is put into determining an appropriate fly-inner gap. Other tents do this, but too many designs do not.

A key part of designing a tent to handle condensation well is having the inner taut. This is harder to do with mesh because it has more stretch to it than solid fabric. So achieving a taut mesh inner is actually quite hard to do (this was probably the hardest attribute to refine in my tent). In general, mainstream tents do a pretty good job with having the inner taut (be it mesh or solid), whereas a lot of UL/cottage tents have limp inners. Most of this has to do with the number of connection points. In a traditional dome tent, the inner might clip to the poles at 10 – 20 places, whereas on the other end of the spectrum is a single pole mid tent where the inner typically is only connects at the peak (plus the four bottom corners). So you get much longer expanses of unsupported material that are going to deflect more easily. In that case you need a larger gap.

Panel Slopes
Something I’ve been ranting on about over the last few months is consistency in panel slopes. A tent can have many steep panels that shed snow well, but if there is one flat panel then the snow will accumulate there. Similarly for wind, if most of the sides have a good slope but one side is vertical, then it’s problematic in high winds. A tent is only as good as its weakest link.

For snow and condensation specifically, the roof panels are typically the weakest link as these are usually on a lower angle than the side panels. Thus if you have heavy condensation, it might run down the inside of the side panels, but drip off the roof panels and splatter onto the mesh. It’s better to have a design where all the panels are on a consistent slope that is steep enough to shed snow and condensation, but not any steeper so that it doesn’t catch more wind than necessary. The ideal slope is around 45 degrees. This something that I worked hard on with my tent, and as a result, the roof panels aren’t nearly as flat are almost every other tent – they are very similar to all the other panel slopes so condensation will run down these panels instead of dripping, aside from droplets knocked loose by wind gusts of course. Thus, my position is that a mesh inner tent can provide excellent protection from condensation in non-windy usage if it has proper panel slopes, taut inner and sufficient gap.

Mesh and High Winds
You could argue that all of what I’ve just said is mute in windy conditions, since gusts can knock droplets loose from any panels slope. However, a few counterpoints here are:
1) In windy conditions condensation tends to be less. Wind increases airflow through the fly, and thus the combination of heavy condensation + high winds is a rare one. There are exceptions (e.g. fog rolling over an alpine ridge, or the wind suddenly picking up), but generally the worst condensation happens when you’re camped in a damp valley bottom with stagnant air. So getting hammered by high winds while simultaneously having heavy condensation is a rare combo that often indicative of poor site selection (but not always).
2) If you do get heavy condensation and moderate winds, this still shouldn’t be an issue if your panel slopes are sufficiently steep. A strong wind gust can knock droplets right off the fly, even from steep slope, but moderate winds jostling the tent will just agitate the droplets so they start rolling down the inside of the fly, if the slope is steep enough. Picture a dome (or “pop up”) tent with heavy condensation in the morning. If you give that tent a shake, some drops will likely fall from the flatter roof part, but on the steeper sides you’ll get drips running down the inside of the fabric. The key point here is that on shallow slopes condensation will more readily drip than run down the fabric, whereas on steep slopes that condensation is more likely to “run” than “drip”. Thinking about the fundamental physics, on a steep panel the surface tension holding the droplet to the fabric is much greater than the outward pull of gravity, and you have gravity pulling it along the panel where it doesn’t have to break the surface tension, so it takes little additional force to make it run, but a lot of additional force to make it drip. Thus if you have a tent with sufficiently steep slopes, moderate winds shouldn’t be a problem – condensation will be coaxed into running long before it drips. Of course high winds exist that are strong enough to do whatever they want. Generally I view the core problem here as the flat panels, and then solid fabric is a backup if that doesn’t work out due to extreme conditions. Even with solid material you still don’t want drops landing on it because they can soak through and start to drip again onto you.

Overall, my view is that the combination of high winds and heavy condensation is a rare one, and in most cases (but not all) it can be avoided through reasonable site selection. So for most folks a properly designed tent with a mesh inner can offer good protection from condensation. I’ve done a lot of my hiking on Vancouver Island, BC, Canada which is home to the wettest place in North America with 260 inches / 700 cm of annual rain, and I’ve never had an issue with a mesh inner. Any mesh issues I’ve had are in the winter.

Certainly there are conditions where a solid inner is better (spindrift, sand storms, high winds) but each design has its place. I find mesh much more pleasant in hot, muggy conditions typical of bug season. A core part of going ultralight is recognizing what functionality you need and ensuring you are only bringing that plus a reasonable safety margin, rather than selecting overkill gear for hypothetical conditions you won’t (or shouldn’t) encounter.

I personally only use a solid inner in the winter to keep blowing snow out. If it was summer and I somehow wound up with a brutal combo of high winds and heavy condensation then at least it should be warm enough that I could duck my head into my sleeping bag and tough it out.

Good analysis.

An option not mentioned and which works very well is to link the groundsheet to the fly permanently, via mesh, and to have mesh doors. That keep the insects out.

There is an unexpected side benefit from eliminating the mesh inner. If I see that the fly has lots of condensation on it in the morning, I carefully mop it all down with a very small sponge before my wife sits up. That more or less eliminates the hassles of water falling all over our gear and clothing.

Of course, if there has been any wind overnight, there is little condensation anyhow – as Dan has noted.

Cheers

Bringing this thread back for a couple of reasons.  The first is that I’m giving up my pyramid zpacks shelter and MYOGing a freestanding shelter.  I did a search for ‘lightest freestanding shelter’ to see what’s out there and compare my handiwork;  this thread and https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/104749/#comments  came up toward the top of the list.  The linked thread is also fairly relevant to me because my new freestanding shelter is DCF.

There are a couple of thoughts I would add to this discussion that nobody has yet.  First off, I’ve used shelters with traditional poles for most of my life, and only within the last few years discovered the whole ultralight movement.  Part of that discovery involved buying a zpacks hexamid solo-plus about 5 years ago.  I was stunned that a ‘tent’ could weigh close to 1 Lb vs the 5.5 Lb 2-person monstrosity I had been lugging around for the last 20 years.

I was super excited about it.  Having used it now for 4 years, I’ve decided it’s not worth the weight savings to me as is.  There are several things about it that I don’t like, but I realized on my last trip that the deal breaker for me is the 6 minimum/10 recommended stakes required to pitch it.  It’s not the weight of the stakes, but the act of driving them into the ground that kills me.

I backpack in the Sierras exclusively, near treeline or above, and all of my camping spots have very little dirt to drive stakes into.  It’s pretty rare to get any stake to go all the way into the ground on the first try without hitting a rock and needing to be re-positioned.  So that means squatting on the ground in an uncomfortable position for a minute or so, getting a stake to go in, standing up, moving to the next one, then repeating 10-12 times (you will probably end up repositioning one or two from the original location chosen based on how the tent pitches).  When I stand up after squatting for a minute, I get a huge head-rush, and that’s at sea-level when I haven’t been doing anything.  When I do that at 10K feet at the end of a long day hiking with worked leg muscles, I just about pass out.  It really does a number on my head, and has become maybe the most unpleasant part of the whole trip.  So that’s the big one I can’t get past any more, followed closely by the difficulty of getting into and out of the tent;  It has a very low entry, and it’s really tricky to enter and exit.

So that leads me to the second thing I’d like to point out in the discussion of freestanding vs non-freestanding; specified weights.  Freestanding tents ALWAYS have the weight of the poles included in the specified weight of the tent by the manufacturer.  Non-freestanding tents NEVER have the weight of the stakes needed included in the specified weight (they DO say this of course).  This continues into the discussions about weights of various shelters, because people always just compare ‘specified’ weights.  This generally makes non-freestanding shelters appear much lower in weight than what you will actually take with you though, so it’s a bit misleading.  True, ‘freestanding’ shelters often need stakes, but usually fewer, and in many cases only necessary to keep them in the same place vs keeping them pitched.  You might be able to get away without carrying any stakes with a freestanding shelter, but it would be MUCH more difficult to hike with a non-freestanding shelter and not carry stakes.

My zpacks hexamid clocks in at 17.41 Oz measured, and the 10 stakes I took with me last trip to pull the sides out to a livable size clocked in at 2.89 Oz.  Yeah, not much, but that’s 16.6% of the weight of the shelter itself, so not insignificant in this arena.  So how about when we compare the weight of things, we specify everything needed for that system that will be carried on a trip?

When I stand up after squatting for a minute, I get a huge head-rush, and that’s at sea-level when I haven’t been doing anything. When I do that at 10K feet at the end of a long day hiking with worked leg muscles, I just about pass out.

Now that IS a new on one me. Might I suggest you could benefit from a discussion with your GP about this? It sounds like a blood pressure thing, which is worrying.

Cheers

“Non-freestanding tents NEVER have the weight of the stakes needed included in the specified weight (they DO say this of course). ”

I think that Tarptent is the only manufacturer of trekking pole supported non-freestanding shelters that include the stuff sack, guyline, and pegs in the finished weight.  Could be mistaken though.

And Hilleberg, of course.

A lot going on here. Anyway, i got rid of my duplex and went back to “freestanding” tent. I actually went with Nemo Firefly 2p. The 68d floor enticed me. I dont mind the added weight for carrying this tent when warrented. It is spacious. 2 huge vestibules.. i would say it is truly free standing.  When the fly is needed.. 2 stakes only.. 1 for each vestibule.  Yes, i would use 3 stakes.. 1 to pull the fly away from head area.. but in a pinch.. 2 works just fine. If i just pitch the inner.. no stakes at all. On a riverside.. on rocks.. on a granite slab on a mountain top with stunning views.. no stakes needed.  The duplex i needed stakes to pitch it.. and i never had the option of just the inner mesh to lay in.

90% of the time i will be sleeping in my hammock. 5% of the time i will in my bivy and other 5% of time in a tent.. just saying..

I will actually be using the Firefly in 2 weeks for a weekend trip with my wife. Yes.. 28 years later she finally will come on an overnight backpacking/camping trip with me.. lol, so the Firefly it is. And yes, i will post some thoughts about it after.

For me and what i will use it for.. its just easier and more convenient and more luxurious the the duplex was.

I also could not stand sliding all over that duplex floor. If i was not pitched on level flat ground.. my pad would slide everywhere.  .. minor grip.. but still. And mostly hiking in NY, NJ and PA.. it is all rocks and roots..  so again, the stake thing comes into play..

Here is some pics of the Firefly pitched in my yard with my Uberlite Large and women xlite in it.. snug but perfect for us.. 

the top picture shows it fully staked out, all 4 corners and vestibule. The 4 corners are not necessary, but I did stake them here as I was leaving it set up a few days in my yard and it was going to be windy and rainy and I was not going to be home as I had to work. The  bottom picture shows it with the head side staked out. Not necessary.. but works well.

The Double Rainbow and Double Rainbow Li can be pitched freestanding, with only the vestibules needing to be staked out (and where I backpack I could always find two rocks to serve that purpose if I wanted to). No extra weight if you hike with trekking poles.

I think it’s an amazing shelter, and really shows Henry’s genius in design.

The Hornet has a lot going for it at 28 oz., unless trying to cut out those last 10 oz by going with a 0.5 DCF single-wall shelter (mostly Tarptent Li series but also Zpacks).  Then there’s SMD at 28 oz but about $200 in Silpoly.

The Hornet is pretty interesting but I wish the “big“ tent makers would design one that sets up fly first.   I need the fly when it rains …

There’s poles but carrying those anyways (knees)

“The Hornet is pretty interesting but I wish the “big“ tent makers would design one that sets up fly first.”

Vaude (the V is pronounced as an F), a European tent maker, makes such tents (and I’m sure others as well). Unfortunately they’re not very light. But I used a Vaude tent for years when I was in Germany.

Roger:  Haha, you’re right, I do have fairly low blood pressure!  I have since I was a teenager.  Doctors have commented on it over the years, but said it wasn’t something to be overly concerned with.  It does lead to those unpleasant headrushes at high altitude though….

Ah well, just have to live with it. Stand up slowly.

Cheers

Craig B.,
On seeing the Zpacks tents for the first time, the first thought was all the pegs, not to mention the repeated adjustments to them required for the set up. This is sometimes referred to on BPL as “fiddle-factor,” which you have described well, and is an even bigger issue when pitching in a downpour, especially a frigid one.

But worse in a downpour is the flooding of many ‘free standing’ tents with inners that must be pitched first, and the fly attached afterward. But in the dry Sierras, you might accept that risk. In Colorado or New England, that would be nuts; but in the Sierras maybe it is a different story.

If looking for for a ‘freestanding’ shelter that will not flood during pitching, or when entering or leaving the tent in a downpour, there isn’t much available, which may be one reason why so many have gone to trekking pole supported tents. After all, if you don’t mind crawling under a Black Diamond single wall dome to install a set of dome poles, just poking two trekking poles in from the top looks pretty good.

But like me, if you are also set on a tent that is ‘free standing’, Trekkertent is not taking new orders during the pandemic, and Big Sky is slow and their websites are obtuse; but they have some external pole domes that pitch dry, are reasonably light, and some come in DCF (speaking of high priced risks). They have also received many compliments on BPL, notwithstanding delays in some cases. But unlike me, if you don’t expect severe rainstorms, there are lots of choices, including the Locus Djedi in DCF. Still light, but not DCF, are some domes from Nemo that are still very light, and some have poles at all four corners so you can use your few pegs for guylines when it gets windy.

BTW, I also have low blood pressure, but it was never a problem when younger. Now I take Plavix or its generic, and am never lightheaded, except on BPL of course.

??
Plavix is a platelet-reducing drug. It usually has the effect of reducing blood pressure, not increasing it.

Cheers

Roger,
Apparently not, although that is what I thought also. The doctor explained to me that the drug works like a lubricant between the red blood cells, and does not reduce platelet count; and several follow up platelet counts confirmed that. But yes, the follow up tests were well advised.

Indeed.
Clopidogrel, sold under the trade name Plavix among others,[2] is an antiplatelet medication used to reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke in those at high risk.[4] It is also used together with aspirin in heart attacks and following the placement of a coronary artery stent (dual antiplatelet therapy).[4] It is taken by mouth.[4] Onset of effects is about two hours and lasts for five days.[4]

Common side effects include headache, nausea, easy bruising, itching, and heartburn.[4] More severe side effects include bleeding and thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura.[4] While there is no evidence of harm from use during pregnancy, such use has not been well studied.[3] Clopidogrel is in the thienopyridine-class of antiplatelets.[4] It works by irreversibly inhibiting a receptor called P2Y12 on platelets.[4]
Wikipedia

Useful stuff. 40th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than 19 million prescriptions.

Cheers

A free standing tent requiring 4 stakes doesn’t mean it will stand up in poor weather. Yes, it is easier to set up — well at least easier at first. I can set up my TrailStar or Deschutes CF in less time than most set up their “free standing” tents.

I don’t mind the extra stakes required for a non-free standing shelter.

On the other hand, I am not setting it up every single night. Unless the weather or the forecast is poor, the shelter stays in my pack and I am using zero stakes while getting a good night’s rest.

Zero stakes is better than 2, 4, 8 or 12!

This has been a bit off piste; however, with similar issues as Craig B, what works for me might work for him also.  Not to belabor the obvious, but before taking Plavix or the generic, he should definitely consult as I did a physician, preferably a cardiologist familiar with his health issues.  Most drugs have side-effects that affect particular people but others, not so much.  So screening by a qualified physician is a must.

I hope more folks will provide Craig with suggestions for the kind of MYOG tent he is looking to design and build to replace the Hexamid.  Note:  He brought this old thread forward with a post above on August 20th, a few days ago.  I had a good time re-reading the old posts, though; along with the posts on his link.  There was another thread, about tents with external poles, that I also enjoyed, but have not been able to dig out as yet.

I’d add that ‘freestanding’  tents tend to be a little heavier than other designs due to the pole weight and additional hardware.  But because they are self-supporting, they can be designed to use leverage to reduce pressure on the stakes that anchor them, and thus require lighter and less stakes.  Whether that will offset the weight of the poles is something that I’ve found needs to be looked at case by case.

There are encouraging signs, though, in some of the ‘freestanding’ tents I mentioned earlier two posts ago.  With the advent of lighter and better nylon and polyester fabrics, solo tents weighing under 2 lbs, and duos weighing around 2.5 lbs have arrived.  And they can be equally or more durable than DCF tents that cost at least twice as much.

The use of leverage to reduce the number and weight of stakes can also occur with tents that are not ‘freestanding,’ such as tunnels and clamshells, such as one proposed last year, and which would use heavily canted arched poles to reduce pressure on stakes:  https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/proposed-clamshell-hex-tent-solo-with-side-entries/
That proposal was essentially for a side-entry tunnel, but not ‘freestanding,’ although like Roger’s tunnels had the additional advantage of being able to be erected by pulling one or two stakepoints after the hoops were fully installed while the tent lay flat on the ground.  Although there was an article by Ryan Jordan about this, I’ve yet to see or even conceive of a ‘freestanding’ tent that can do that as quickly and simply as a tunnel, and it is a big advantage in high winds.

Unless the weather or the forecast is poor, the shelter stays in my pack and I am using zero stakes while getting a good night’s rest.
You guys are lucky.
Here in NSW in OZ we dare not go without a tent. It can go from sunny to hailstorm in half an hour.
To explain: the Sydney basin gets two air streams: one from the N (tropics) and one from the S (Antarctic). They meet over Sydney, and the resulting mess can flick around fast. Makes forecasting here very difficult!

Cheers

Roger,
The weather can turn awful in most of the places I’ve hiked in the US and CA. Will give AU the edge; however, based on your experiences.

The exception, outside of desert and bleak canyon country, is southern California; based on my JMT hike, and many accounts here on BPL. But those accounts can also describe the mobs on the Pacific Crest. A bit of nasty weather oftentimes adds greatly to solitude and enjoyment.

Nick,
If you’ve brought along the tent as you describe, don’t the stakes go with it in the pack?