Freestanding > Non-Freestanding Tents??

I picked up the Tensegrity 2 FL and have been happy with it thus far (only used it a few times albeit).

Something worth considering in your spreadsheet is how durable things are.  Trekking poles are pretty f’n durable, while the poles on some of the lightweight tents are probably sufficient, but fairly fragile.  Not suggesting this would change your choice — just that it is worth considering.

Could you post your spreadsheet so others like yourself do not need to go through the bother of putting together one.

Thanks

I don’t really have a horse in this race and I’m not trying to convince the OP or anyone else to use a particular type of shelter. I want to point out that in an apples to apples comparison (similar floor space, living volume, vestibule size, interior height, etc.) a freestanding tent will either be:

1. heavier
2. made from lighter materials that
   1. are more expensive
   2. or have compromised functionality

I don’t think there is any way around this. The structure of a shelter weighs something. Many people like trekking poles (my knees sure do) and in that case it makes sense to me to use them as structure for my shelter at night.

Just my $.02/HYOH/YMMV/etc. Use whatever tent you like and enjoy your time outdoors!

and similarly a pyramid tent will the lightest – one center pole is the lightest way to suspend a tent

Matthew K, yes this is definitely true! The one thing that the Nemo Hornet really sacrifices is head height. Max of 37″ while most of the non-free standing have around 45″. The floor space is roughly the same, Hornet has 27.4sf while the Zpacks Duplex for example has 28.1sf BUT I think due to general shape the duplex will have more livable space, especially if 2 people are in there. Hornet also has relatively small vestibules compared to some of the non-freestanding shelters.

I totally agree, it’s great to be able to double use trekking poles as shelter frame as well, but I guess what surprised me in going through this exercise was that some of the (semi)free standing models have equal or less weight so you can still have trekking poles, have the benefits of a freestanding tent, and also be just as light.

<script async src=”//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js” charset=”utf-8″></script>

2-Person Lightweight Backpacking Tent Comparison

Not sure the best way to share this list but here you go, screenshots on imgur

“The one thing that the Nemo Hornet really sacrifices is head height.”

It also sacrifices hydrostatic head pressure on the floor/fly fabric. Nemo quotes 1200mm.

I don’t really have a horse in this race and I’m not trying to convince the OP or anyone else to use a particular type of shelter.

Likewise, but…  :)

Addressing one of the OPs concerns, I have one of the first production Duplexes sold (Nov 2013).  I have always used it with a MYOG polycro groundsheet and it still looks and functions as new.  If you take care of it, the Duplex will last a very long time.

As to volume per oz, the Duplexes vertical ingress/egress walls not only maximize interior volume but provide dry entry/exit when raining.

Of course, all of this has been hased an rehashed ad infinitum on this site.

” a pyramid tent will the lightest – one center pole is the lightest way to suspend a tent”

Teach yourself to sleep standing up (millions of horses do it) and then you can skip the center pole.

“A pyramid tent will the lightest – one center pole is the lightest way to suspend a tent”
I disagree with this. The fundamental geometry problem that faces single pole pyramids is that this shape has a poor fabric area to volume ratio. So mids use a disproportionately large amount of fabric relative to the volume they contain. Thus single pole mids are actually quite heavy for their size.

The theoretically most efficient shape in terms of area:volume is a sphere, but of course no one has come up with a practical way to make a spherical tent. So the best tents in existence in terms of fabric area:volume (and thus fabric weight:volume, all else being equal) are dome tents. At the other end of the spectrum are single pole pyramids. No tent shape gets less volume out of the same amount of fabric as a single pole pyramid because the basic shape has a poor area:volume ratio.

But of course a dome tent (or a hypothetical spherical tent) requires a lot of poles to achieve that more area:volume efficient shape, so any fabric weight savings are more than negated by the added pole weight. So if we count trekking poles as free weight, but otherwise sum up both fabric weight and pole tent, then easily the most volumetrically efficient shape for a hiker with two poles is a dual trekking pole supported shelter.

To give an example of the efficiency of single vs dual pole shelters, my dual trekking pole X-Mid tent has about 30% more volume than a single pole pyramid with a comparably sized base (e.g. MLD DuoMid) and yet the X-Mid only uses about 5% more fabric. So hypothetically I could shrink the X-Mid by 20% and it would still have more volume than a single pole mid and yet less weight. So it would be lighter for the size. So it depends on how you define lightest shelter. If we define lightest only in two dimensions (weight:floor area) then bivys win. But shelters are 3 dimensional objects, so if we define lightest in three dimensions (weight:volume) and consider both fabric weight and any the weight of non-trekking pole supports, then two pole shelters are easily the most weight efficient and thus “lightest” (unless you’re hiking in a pair with 4 trekking poles…).

It seems that in UL backpackers quest to go UL as possible, we put up with some of the major drawbacks of a non-freestanding tent which is that they are a pain in the butt to set up, especially in a storm (I’ve borrowed friends before) and that they are many times single walled which is terrible for condensation which is inevitable where I live (yes I know some have methods of mitigating this).
I generally agree that non-freestanding tents are a pain to set up, but this isn’t fundamentally the case – you can have a simple to pitch non-freestanding shelter (e.g. mids). There are just a lot poor designs out there IMO that haven’t given ample consideration to usability. Shelter designers should think very carefully before opting for a design that requires users to guess multiple angles, distances, pole heights etc. This added complexity might be worth it in some cases, but often it is not. Many tent manufacturers seem to sprinkle these concessions throughout their designs for no apparent advantage, which has contributed to the widely held view that non-freestanding shelters are a hassle.

Agreed that single wall condensation is a pain. I thought single wall tents were a terrible idea until I hiked in SoCal and never got condensation (compared to the PNW). Now I realize they can work for some people in some environments, but too many people are using them in inappropriate climates and having a rough go of things.

Back on your general topic of freestanding vs. non – I think the main reason why you aren’t seeing a big weight difference is that most non-freestanding shelters are design to be reasonably sized, whereas the lightest freestanding shelters are ridiculously undersized.  For example, the freestanding MSR Carbon Reflex 1 is super light (lighter than the non-freestanding TarpTent Notch) but the size of the Carbon Reflex is incredibly small. It’s only 34″ tall (compared to 43″).  Or as another example, the Mountain Hardwear Ghost UL 2 is very light (40oz) but it’s only 36″ tall and the floor is only 35″ wide at the foot end. A non-freestanding TarpTent Saddle 2 weighs roughly the same but has a 50″ wide floor and 45″ tall. So again we are back to much better weight:volume ratios.

As Matthew K pointed out, the poles weigh something to have the same weight you need to give something up. Usually this is space but it can be functionality or durability.

some of the major drawbacks of a non-freestanding tent which is that they are a pain in the butt to set up, especially in a storm
A sweeping generalisation, and both wrong and misleading.

Misleading, because whether a tent is freestanding or not has very little to do with the matter. What matters is the design of the tent. Some are designed for sheltered forest sites in the Sierra Summers, where you could often cowboy camp anyhow.

Wrong, because it just is wrong. A pop-up, be it free-standing or not freestanding, can be a major hassle to erect in a storm – no argument there. But there are other designs which are NOT a hassle to erect in a storm. To ignore those other designs is silly.

I have erected one of my 2-man tunnel tents (certainly not freestanding!) in a howling gale with snow (100 kph wind) on several occasions, and it only takes me a few minutes to do so – solo. As my single-skin summer tent weighs 1260 g (with poles) for TWO people, its weight per person is certainly competitive with so many other one-man designs. My winter double-skin tent (taking 100 kph winds all night) weighs 1800 g (with poles) for two people, and all things considered that is still extremely light per person.

Yes, there are plenty of poor (and very poor) tent designs out there, but extrapolating from them is not wise.

Cheers

To feed on David’s comment, a bivy is the lightest

Dan’s X mid is a nice design.  A mid can have 2 poles – the poles are a little shorter than 1 pole to provide the same headroom, so together they weigh more, but you use less fabric so the total weight is about the same.  A duplex is pretty good too.

But all those tunnel and dome tents weigh a little more because of the poles, that’s what I meant to say.  Maybe if one wanted a mountaineering tent for high winds a tunnel tent could be made to take it better.

Dan, your point about volume of single vs double pole mids is very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

I think the thing I liked about non-freestanding tent is I am big on multi-purposes for gear. So in this case my treking poles get an additional use. It weighs a little more because it’s a double wall tent but that also means I can use just the fly if critters aren’t going to be a problem and condensation isnt really an issue.

Onto the perceived trade offs on a non-freestanding tent. I think part of the issue is “practice.” I repeatedly put the tent up both conventionally and also using decent sized rocks and other methods (for when the ground isnt stake friendly). I can now get the tent up almost as fast as my old freestanding tent. In the end a perceived disadvantage can be seriously mitigated, even eliminated, if you simply know your equipment.

“and that they are many times single walled which is terrible for condensation which is inevitable…”

In my opinion, there’s nothing about the design of the Hornet that will mitigate condensation any differently from a single walled shelter. Given that 90 percent of the inner is either mosquito netting or a part of the bathtub floor material, any condensation will simply splash on the netting, and then on one’s sleeping bag.

I assume you might have already seen this, but I found it interesting: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/95h8ts/nemo_hornet_design_flaw/

Seems to me that we all have differing opinions about the definition of a “double walled shelter.” But in my personal experience, there’s a HUGE difference with condensation management between a tent with an inner made of 90% fabric vs a tent with 90% mosquito netting.

Personally, I prefer simply having a single wall shelter (tarp or mid) or a true fabric double wall (geo/tunnel). At least with the single wall I can easily wipe off condensation with a towel.

OK, stake in the ground time.

A tent which has a mesh inner is NOT a double-skin tent. It is only a single skin tent with an internal insect barrier. To be sure, the insect barrier may be very useful, but it is NOT a full skin or wall.

To qualify as a genuine double-skin tent the inner tent must be able to block the wind (and spin-drift and falling condensation). That means a full fabric layer all around. Mesh doors are OK provided that they are backed up by full fabric doors.

Marketing spin from tent mfrs which claims otherwise should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Their concern is not your comfort and safety, its their profit margin (out of your wallet). That may be a legitimate concern on their part of course, but it does not excuse attempts at deception.

My own personal opinions.
</flamethrower>

Cheers

Roger Caffin’s comments are always to the point and direct—which I like . . . ALOT.

Roger says, “I have erected one of my 2-man tunnel tents (certainly not freestanding!) in a howling gale with snow (100 kph wind) on several occasions, and it only takes me a few minutes to do so – solo.”

True, but those “few minutes” can be memorable.  No tent in my opinion is easy to set up in a howling hellstorm—blizzard, severe cold, sleet etc.  Why?  Because it’s rolled up somewhere on your back and the pack needs to be dumped on the ground and the stakes and poles and tent itself needs to be retrieved and the WHOLE WAD set up fast while maintaining some type of Dignity and Digits—and not shake too much from Stage One hypothermia.

I call it the 8 Second Rodeo Ride.  How long can I stay on the Bull?

but those “few minutes” can be memorable.
But that is what makes the whole trip memorable!
And also what makes getting into the tent once it is up so delightful. The joy! :)

Not for you, Tipi, but for novices:

Yes, I have to drop my pack to get the tent out, but since my tent lives just under the lid, that is not difficult. The poles and stakes are equally accessible – like fast. Burying your tent deep inside your pack is just stupid.

Stage One Hypothermia – yeah, sure, been there a few times in the snow. But (at least for the sake of novices reading this), let me emphasise that we knew exactly what we were doing, from long experience. We knew exactly how cold we were and how exactly long we could prat around getting the tent up. I was jumping around with the tent (stomp snow, bury stakes, etc) much more than Sue (my wife), so she was getting colder than me. As soon as I had 4 stakes in place (2 at each end), I told her to get inside, out of the wind. That is actually our normal procedure.

At the risk of being utterly boring, I will emphasise the huge difference between pitching a tunnel in a storm and trying to pitch a pop-up. A tunnel goes up smooth and slick regardless of the weather. A pop-up (or tarp etc) can be a disaster. If anyone is wondering about this, see for example:
https://backpackinglight.com/caffin_snow_camping/
https://backpackinglight.com/tunnel_tents_part1/ (& parts 2 & 3)
https://backpackinglight.com/when_things_go_wrong/

Dignity? Huh, what’s that? Try going to the loo in a bad storm …

Digits? Oh yeah, but again, under those conditions we are both wearing at least liner gloves and Goretex overmitts, if not also heavy fleece mitts. There is no way either of us is going to be bare-fingered! And yes, with a bit of practice one can do the whole tent thing in heavy gloves. In fact, in Alpine country we always carry at least liners and overmitts, even in mid-summer. We have used them.

Ah, but when one is inside a reliable tent, out of the storm, changed into dry warm clothing, and hot soup is coming – it is all worth while.

Cheers

“… whether a tent is freestanding or not has very little to do with the matter. What matters is the design of the tent.”
Yes, and there are so many variables in design and materials that freestanding or not is really a false dichotomy. Preparing to throw out nearly all my old Backpacker mags, I was reminded of how the two pole single cross point domes were everywhere at one time. Then struts and other gizmos were added to make them less vulnerable to weather. Then they were made only partly free-standing to save weight, and so on. Currently, the hiking pole supported tents have become the fad. But the current fad makes no difference. It is the design and materials that make the difference.

That is why I went to MYOG, because I can control the design and materials. Take the Duplex for example: An engineer might be able to evaluate the design and materials, but others, not so much. So as David’s post implies, this discussion may go on ad infinitem. I respect all the work the OP put in  trying to select a new tent, and don’t mean to be cynical; but without expertise and a lot of info that the marketers leave out, it is a crapshoot. The late Jack Stephenson said that designing tents is an exercise in “insanity,” and he was an aeronautical engineer. And there have been serious flaws noted here about his tents. So what chance does the average hiker have in picking one?

The most recent tent I’ve used was from Australia, but it was expensive and required a lot of MYOG work without which it would have been unacceptably heavy and cramped.  Yes, it is a freestanding dome, but would be worthless for BPL without the MYOG work:
<https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/81307>

I think the best bet for newer packers is to look at the gear testing websites before making a choice, and after using it for a while in all kinds of weather, become familiar enough with the sundry issues to choose something better.  (BPL used to have some great tent reviews but not these days, ditto for Backpacker mag.)

Currently, am working on a tent that is not freestanding, so practice what I preach.

“A tent which has a mesh inner is NOT a double-skin tent.”
I think there are some cultural differences going on here. In some areas (e.g. Europe) the term “double skin” is used and it does often refer to solid layers (or “skins”), while in other areas the term “double wall” is used and it normally refers to walls of any type. In the USA for example the vast majority of tents that are referred to as “double wall” have mesh inner walls, while solid inner walls are rare. Even in many areas where “double skin” is the common term and solid fabric inner walls are common, this term is still widely understood to apply to tents with both solid and mesh inners.

So perhaps where Roger is from the definition of a double skin excludes mesh inner tents, but that it far from the norm globally. I don’t think it’s fair to say that manufacturers who refer to their mesh inner tents as “double skin” or “double wall” are displaying marketing spin deserving of contempt. In many areas, customers equate “double wall” and “double skin” with mesh inner walls moreso than solid inner walls. Alternatively, if manufacturers were to refer to these tents a “single skin” they would widely misunderstood as not having a mesh layer. Perhaps the world would be better off with an additional term like “1.5 skin” to greater distinguish these styles of shelters. In the mean time though, I think any mildly educated customer can figure out what they’re buying.

To the more functional points on solid vs mesh walls, I think mesh walls are more than just an insect barrier – if that was all they did, there were be no advantage over a single wall/skin shelter. Properly tensioned mesh walls also provide a physical barrier from contacting condensation, which is a large benefit. I hike in the PNW where it very wet and find this to be a large advantage of single wall shelters were I’m also bumping my head or sleeping bag against wet walls. If you’re not a climate with extreme humidity, blowing sand or spindrift that requires solid fabric, then mesh offers advantages in airflow/ventilation and improved views.

OK, I am old-school and hard-line. But I prefer to not debase the currency, as it were.

“Improved views”? Not too many when you have a single skin tent over you, and even fewer when you are fast asleep! I get views all the day anyhow. </bias>

Cheers

yeah, mesh inner will let you know you’re getting close to the condensation.  If you brush against netting on condensation layer you’ll get less water on you.

I agree that a mesh inner tent with an outer fly is a single wall tent when you consider mesh HAS HOLES ALL THROUGH IT.  Mesh will not keep out fly condensation . . . or spindrift . . . or butt cold winds.  A mesh inner tent only keeps out bugs.

My buddy uses a typical so-called Double Wall Tent with a mesh inner and he woke up one cold morning and found fly condensation dripping down onto the mesh—eventually dripping down into the living area.

Something more to the volume discussion from Slingfin:
http://www.slingfin.com/beta/volume-adding-a-new-dimension?fbclid=IwAR3bP9WjDSmhFqxpOWI9kvWt8xErwdX7LaxrTrgxW_n_PS0SWg88qhHnOrM