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Frameless Pack? Thoughts on TPW


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Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 27 total)
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  • #3475990
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    I realize this question has come up in past threads.  I realize every body and set of shoulders is different, but I’m hoping for opinions on a good total pack weight for a frameless pack.  I’m looking at the MLD Burn.  With that pack, on a weekend overnight hike my TPW would be around 16 lbs,   Thanks

    #3475999
    Lester Moore
    BPL Member

    @satori

    Locale: Olympic Peninsula, WA

    Jeffrey – a few months ago I just got an MLD Burn as my first frameless overnight pack. I love the design, low weight, durability and features of this pack – it has done well on 5 trips so far this year.

    As someone still getting used to carrying weight over 10 lbs in a frameless, for the time being the Burn feels comfortable and a no-brainer choice for total pack weights of 17 lbs or less. At around 20 lbs in the Burn, I find myself fidgeting with the shoulder strap tension and noticing the weight more than in my GG Gorilla. I’ve found the most comfy way to pack the Burn is 1/8″ CCF sleeping pad against the back, inflatable and clothing next against in the bottom against the back of the CCF, then quilt and down clothes loose stuffed in the rest of the bottom, then food on top as close to the CCF back as possible. The most comfy way to carry so far is about 50/50 weight distribution between the shoulders and hip strap, especially as the weight goes over 20 lbs.

    One big caveat: unlike other packs I’ve owned recently, the medium torso length I got with the Burn is a little too short for my liking and I suspect that’s part of the challenge. I temporarily rigged load lifters and that made it much more comfortably with pack weights in the high teens or low twenties. It’s also more comfy if I wear the waist belt higher on my torso. Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but the medium just feels a little short, despite my measurements being right in the medium category on the MLD sizing chart. As the belt has no real stiffness, it sags quite a bit front to back when bearing weight, so that’s likely why the torso length feels short.

    The other part of the challenge is I’m just not used to carrying 20+ lbs in a frameless yet. This will take more time to get used too, especially the shoulders. As most of my trips are 1 to 3 nighters with less than 15 lbs total weight, not a big deal. I’ll likely sell this Burn next winter and buy a large torso Burn (probably in gray instead of wasabi green).

    #3476010
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Thanks, a lot, Lester.  That’s a very helpful perspective.  And thanks for the packing advice, too. Sounds like the TPW I expect to carry on these shorter trips (~16 lbs) should be comfortable based on what you’ve experienced.  Looking at the MLD web site, I believe I would fit in the sweet spot of a size medium Burn as well, so hopefully I wouldn’t have the same fit issues that you’ve gotten.  Still mulling over whether I want to make the move to frameless.

    Question: How important do you feel the 1/8″ CCF pad is for comfort against the back?  I have a Neo Air and figured I’d fold it and use it as a minimal back panel, then pack from there.

    #3476013
    Lester Moore
    BPL Member

    @satori

    Locale: Olympic Peninsula, WA

    MLD will let you exchange a new pack for a different size within 30 days if you only wear it inside (or maybe around the bock). Because I’m new to frameless and the medium fits OK with lighter loads, I was not fully aware of the torso length issue until actually did a test hike with the pack (so no more exchanges). I’m 100% glad I switched to a light frameless pack for lower weight trips – the GG gorilla always felt overkill for trips under 15 lbs. And the Burn makes a very well featured day pack when cinched down.

    As for the CCF, it definitely helps smoothe out the back panel of the pack, but I have not tried many other packing configurations without it yet because I always carry this CCF. However, I plan to try using an inflatable against the back someday in place of a CCF, inflating it a bit after completely packing the Burn to see how it acts as an “air panel”. If I buy a bivy or Zpacks poncho/groundsheet, I may leave the CCF at home as it’s only used for sleeping under the inflatable.

    #3476025
    John Vance
    BPL Member

    @servingko

    Locale: Intermountain West

    I have carried an SMD Swift for the past 7 years with starting trip weights in the mid twenties for 8-10 day trips without resupply.  I found that a larger torso size was needed to get it to work for me.   With the belt cinched tight, the shoulder straps, where they are sewn to the top of the packbag, are right at shoulder height or slightly above.  This allowed for most of the weight to be transferred to my hips.  As the weight dropped from consuming my food, I could l take more weight on my shoulders until I just pulled the hip belt around the back of the pack and buckled it to itself.  Load lifters, as you have pointed out, are accomplishing a similar task.

    I have been playing around with a small GG beltless pack (24L) for weekend trips and really like it up to about 15 pounds.  Using two sternum straps, one high and the other low, really stabilizes the pack and takes some weight off the top of my shoulders.  I also have my water bottles mounted on the shoulder straps which helps shift weight as well.  Pretty comfy actually.  If I where to do another thru hike or large “chunk” hike, I would go beltless and uber Minimalist with a no cook setup, making as many miles as possible each day to keep water and food weight down.

    My weekend trips are making me realize that even my typical 10lb base weight can be cut down to 6lbs without much loss in comfort or safety.  Watching John Z’s videos got me thinking about what else I can do without if trail time is my number one priority.  The bigger picture is making sure I can continue to backpack for as long as possible as I go onto retirement and beyond.  Lightening up and simplifying my kit is a big part of that.

    #3476028
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    I am good with a frameless to 25-26 pounds.  I start feeling it about then.  I’m only carrying that much on a longer trip, but it works fine.  I once started with 26-7 pounds and it was a little uncomfortable the first day.  I’m perfectly fine with 16 pounds on any trip with a frameless for sure.  I do use a 1/8 foam pad on the back like Lester does and I think it improves performance on a frameless.  It’s nice to have in camp too.

    #3476030
    Matthew / BPL
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    I am comfortable with a TPW approaching 20# but I’m happy below 17#.

    I find I like a longer torso in a frameless pack because I wear the webbing belt down wear my pants beltline in not up high on the iliac crest like a real hipbelt. I had a medium Burn for a while and ended up selling it for a couple reasons. If I got another Burn I’d be tempted to order a large.

    i do not feel a need for a pad against my back in a frameless pack. I hike without one more often then with. I use a XLite when sleeping. I do use the sitpad from my Kumo on the exterior of the pack from time to time.

    Frameless is a joy. It feels so nice to hike with such a light, small pack. Going sans belt is amazing. I do that below ~15#. I’ll start off on day one with the belt with my full load, let it dangle later in the trip, use it again if I have to tank up… its great.

    #3476031
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Guys, I’m curious.  Do you carry your frameless packs because they feel more comfortable to you at these weights than a framed pack, or is it more about saving some weight?

    #3476049
    John S.
    BPL Member

    @jshann

    Saving weight…

    #3476054
    Lester Moore
    BPL Member

    @satori

    Locale: Olympic Peninsula, WA

    Do you carry your frameless packs because they feel more comfortable to you at these weights than a framed pack, or is it more about saving some weight?

    The Burn saves a pound of weight compared to my Gorilla. Smaller volume fits gear better for shorter trips. Rolls up and fits inside a bivy sack at night much better than a framed pack. Compresses down to a day pack better than a framed pack. A more compact pack is better for off-trail or crawling over/under blowdowns on the trail. A 13 oz frameless pack simply feels more well matched to a 15lb or less pack weight. If you backpack LW or UL and can afford two packs, something like a Burn complements a 1.5 – 2 lb framed pack very well.

    #3476059
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Thanks, Lester.  In what turned out to be a round about way, that’s really the crux of what I’m trying to get at.  I can drop 18 oz from my lightest framed pack (Ohm 2.0) with, say, an MLD Burn.  That’s great, but it wouldn’t make a lot of sense for me to drop that weight if the frameless carry were less comfortable (guess I won’t know unless I try).  That’s really the conundrum that some of us wrestle with when considering this, isn’t it?  The other reasons you mentioned for frameless/smaller definitely help to color in the picture.

    #3476068
    John Vance
    BPL Member

    @servingko

    Locale: Intermountain West

    For me it’s about saving weight and forcing me to more carefully scrutinize each item due to weight and space restrictions.  My “framed” pack is 42oz and very comfortable with 5-35 lbs but I intrinsically like the smaller/lighter/less is more approach.  Frameless and beltless up to 12-15 lbs, frameless with belt 15-25 lbs, and framed with substantial belt 20-35lbs+.

    #3476072
    Matthew / BPL
    Moderator

    @matthewkphx

    Jeffrey, for me it’s about hiking in a comfortable manner without a big hipbelt. It’s just so nice to be able to breathe and not feel constrained. That means getting the weight down pretty low and at that point I don’t really need a frame.

    I definitely don’t go frameless to save the weight.

    #3476198
    Bob Moulder
    BPL Member

    @bobmny10562

    Locale: Westchester County, NY

    For me it’s a combination of weight and comfort.

    When base weight gets below about 8lbs and consumables aren’t too heavy, it makes sense to use a frameless pack. I have a Zero (very similar spec to the Burn) and find it very comfortable up to about 15 lb and “merely” comfortable at 18-20 lb.

    When it’s very hot and humid, however, I prefer the Arc Blast because of the back ventilation. It scrunches down very nicely with the side compression cords.

    #3476199
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Thanks everyone for what has been a really good discussion.  I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, insight and experience.  I’m a little surprised that no frameless naysayers appeared in the thread.  I’ve decided to pull the trigger on an MLD Burn.  By all accounts it’s a great pack and should fit the bill for me perfectly.  Unfortunately, Ron tells me there’s a 7 week wait.  I look at this as part of my continued evolution from when I considered a 25 TPW to be acceptable.  BPL has certainly helped me move a long way from that.  Still working on dropping another pound or two.  Maybe I’ll report back on my first frameless experience this fall once I’ve had a chance to take the Burn out on its maiden voyage.  Cheers.

    #3476200
    Hoosier T
    BPL Member

    @jturner140

    Locale: Midwest

    I use a Zimmerbuilt quickstep. I had Chris build it with a 3D mesh hipbelt (very thin, not load bearing) and elastic on the back panel so I could strap a single piece of ridgerest to it. I made roll top cuben dry bags to fit the exact internal dimensions. One they’re rolled tight, they slide in perfectly and this ends up making the entire pack rigid, like a column. That, coupled with the sit pad allows minimal weight distribution to my hips. However, I have found that this particular setup is only comfortable for me up to 18lbs. I went on a trip last month and had to carry some extra food and water and it put me at a starting TPW of 22.5lbs. It was bearable, but not exactly comfortable. Because of this, I’m now making a LW framed pack for those low to mid-20lb trips.

    #3476201
    Bob Moulder
    BPL Member

    @bobmny10562

    Locale: Westchester County, NY

    Jeffrey, here is my gear list when using the Zero… changes a bit depending on expected weather and current whims. I’ve tried to be as complete as possible so that trail head TPW matches spreadsheet weight… no fudging and no “hiding” stuff in pockets! :)

    #3476207
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Thanks, Bob!  Your list is making me feel like mine is in pretty good shape.

    #3476218
    Brando Sancho
    BPL Member

    @saudade

    Locale: SoCal

    Don’t forget you can request simple modifications to your Burn, sometimes at no additional cost. I ordered my Burn a few months ago. I had been wanting one for years, but waited to buy my pack last once everything else was lightened up.

    I ordered a padded Prophet hip belt. If I had to order again I’d make a few changes:

    1. I’d order it in Cuben. I swear a ton and I would want it waterproof now to simply avoid having my sweat epetrate the pack.

    2. I’d order it without a hip belt, or maybe a simple detachable one. After a few uses I now realize the Prophet belt is overkill.

    3. I’d delete the hydration port since I don’t use a bladder.

    4. I’d request Prophet shoulder straps, that are 3″ instead of the stock 2.5″. Not totally necessary but it should help distribute the weight.

    A note on making a frame, I’ve been using either a Dutchware Gear Sit Pad, or a folded GG thinlite. If you want to use an inflatable to sleep on, I’d buy the GG Sitlight Seat to use as a frame. Perfect size for this purpose.

    Id also add an MLD pack liner to your order. They are more narrow than a trash bag and are a better fit for the narrow Burn.

    #3476222
    Nick Gatel
    BPL Member

    @ngatel

    Locale: Southern California

    I hate anything over 12lbs with a frameless. At 16lbs it is agony. I’m thrilled to carry 18 or 19 pounds with a small but highly functional framed back (McHale) versus 16 with a feather weight pack. It doesn’t bother me that I lose SUL bragging rights.

    #3476225
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    And I being larger framed than Nick is am perfectly comfortable without a hipbelt, and frame into the mid 20s. As always YMMV.

    #3476230
    Ben C
    BPL Member

    @alexdrewreed

    Locale: Kentucky

    Hmmm, maybe size does correlate with how much weight you are comfortable carrying in a frameless.  I’m about 6’4″ and 195 pounds, and 25 pounds is comfortable in a frameless for me too.

    #3476248
    Lester Moore
    BPL Member

    @satori

    Locale: Olympic Peninsula, WA

    I’m thrilled to carry 18 or 19 pounds with a small but highly functional framed back (McHale) versus 16 with a feather weight pack.

    Yea, that’s about where I am at too. After multiple test hikes with around 20 lbs in both the Burn and the GG Gorilla on the same trail, it actually feels easier hiking with the Gorilla at 20 lbs, even though it’s one pound more weight.

    That said, the Burn has better shoulder straps than the Gorilla IMHO and is very comfy under 13 lbs or so, and just fine up to 16 lbs or so. And I really like the Burn’s belt and wings. The body of the Burn stiffens up nicely when packed well, allowing quite a bit of weight to pass to the hip belt if desired (it’s nice to be able to change shoulder-hip weight distribution throughout the day).

    Jeffrey – consider Burn customizations carefully in regard to MLD’s exchange policy. Last I checked they would not exchange gear with certain customizations. If you know for sure you’re choosing the correct torso length, then maybe it’s not an issue.

    #3476262
    Paul Magnanti
    BPL Member

    @paulmags

    Locale: Colorado Plateau

    I truly think it all depends on the person.

    I look like central casting’s idea of a longshoreman or perhaps Gimli’s distant Italian cousin.

    Meaning, I ain’t pretty but  I can haul weight with a frameless pack rather well. The volume, as opposed to the weight, is the main sticking point for me.  When I did the PCT in the ancient times of 2002, I used a frameless Lynn Wheldon pack (the 1lb mesh pack) with 10 days of food (Kennedy Meadows to V V R with a Whitney side trip) an ice axe, and my normal gear which was probably ~13 o 14 lbs of BPW then.  I did that because it was the pack I had and did not want to swap out and pick up my pack again. I’d use a different pack if I was doing “just” one 10 day stretch for the trip and then calling it good.

    With my ULA CDT, I find it maxes out at 6 days of food volume. Five is better.

    Meaning: It all depends. :)

    As a rule of thumb, I think 10 lbs BPW of less, 4 days of food, and 1 liter of water seems to be the comfort for most..or 20 lbs or less total.

    #3600493
    Jeff W.
    BPL Member

    @jcwhynot

    Locale: Northeast

    Thought I’d circle back on this thread I started a couple of years ago as it may be of interest to some folks.  It took that long to make the move, but this past winter I ordered an MLD Prophet frameless pack.  Last weekend I took it on it’s maiden voyage…a three day 36 mile hike through the Whites.  I was surprised that my total pack weight to start was nearly 20 lbs.  Based on comments I had seen about comfortable frameless pack weights I was a little concerned about comfort, but off I went.

    Honestly, I was amazed.  That first day, with the heavier weight, I was perfectly comfortable with no noticeable shoulder soreness at the end of the day.  On the second day there was a period of time when I didn’t take the pack off for three and a half hours, which speaks for itself.  I didn’t even notice the pack on my back the last day and finished just north of 14 pounds TPW.

    Now, my sense is that my experience had a lot to do with the pack itself.  Two big thumbs up for Ron and how he builds his packs.  I think the 3″ wide shoulder straps make a huge difference in distributing the weight, not to mention the thick padding.  The hip belt is also well padded and doesn’t cause discomfort if you need to tighten it down to distribute some weight.  Overall, the fit and functionality of the pack was perfect.

    Obviously YMMV, but if you want to take the frameless plunge don’t be afraid.  And I highly recommend the MLD Prophet as a good introductory frameless pack.

     

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