Flame "Orange" Wars

[Paul Wagner]

”

This is the official advice of the Dartmoor National Park:

Stay out of sight – backpackers should use very small and lightweight tents which easily blend into the landscape. Part of the enjoyment of experiencing the National Park is its unspoilt and vast landscapes, so it is important that other people’s enjoyment of Dartmoor is not impaired by tents dotting the view.

Thanks Geoff.  I made exactly the same original post on a half-dozen backpacking community boards.  The reaction on this one was considerably more negative than on any of the others.  I certainly expected push back–thus the title of the original post–and I absolutely understand the value of bright colors when camping in the snow.  But in general, the reaction here was as you noted, rather one-sided.  I am not upset by that–it just shows that there are different communities on each of these boards.

I would agree with the principles of Dartmoor.  We frown on backpackers who make loud noises in the backcountry, spoiling the experience for others.  It’s not just Leave No trace–it is, in fact, make a smaller footprint, or limit the impact of your presence.  For me, loud colors have a similar negative impact.

But I think that the equipment manufacturers and the magazines often glorify that unique campsite on top of the granite dome, all alone in a bright day-glo yellow tent.

 

[MJ H]

A Pennsylvania forest is very different visually from the moor. The line of sight isn’t very long regardless of color. I don’t have an orange tarp, but I’m not going to argue with anybody who has one on the grounds of wanting to be seen by deer hunters. I don’t think I’d have a leg to stand on if I did. It wasn’t that long ago that somebody’s baby got shot by a deer hunter who couldn’t figure out he was shooting in the direction of a house. If it’s deer season, I hang my blaze orange hat and jacket or shirt as visibly as I can.

[Paul Wagner]

Agreed.  And I hike mainly in the Sierra Nevada, where lines of sight are much longer…and deer hunting is outlawed in the National Parks.

[Pedestrian]

Paul, thanks much for sharing your perspective and your plug for LNT.

And no LNT is not some random individual’s idea……as suggested by some ignoramus in this thread.

If you’re going to post, please educate yourself at least a little bit – a pretty low bar.

 

 

 

[Nick Gatel]

I ascribe to the philosophy of the famous baseball player, Wee Willie Keeler who said, “hit ‘em where they ain’t.”

Applied to backpacking, that means seeking out remote places where other backpackers “ain’t.”

The problem is people want to go where others are going to be.

Same applies to campgrounds. Below is a California State Campground that is filled to capacity almost every day of the year at a cost of $60 per night.

 

We prefer this $7.50 per night place because we are usually the only ones there most days. How can this be?

We live in the age of social media and selfies, so, many people are going to prefer gaudy tents that are prominent in their Twits, or whatever it is they post online.

Seems most people set up tents at the end of the day and leave in the morning anyway. If they camp in one spot for a longer time in a gray tent, does that leave less trace than an overnighter in an orange tent?

Do the lugged soles of boots or trail runners leave less trace than an orange tent?

If we banned all cameras and smartphones from the backcountry would the number of orange (or all) shelters decline?

If it matters, my current shelters are stealthy colored. But I have a nice yellow Patagonia R1 hoody I often wear in the backcountry. Should I replace it with a green or gray one? What about my fire engine red shoes?

[Kattt]

+1 to Nick’s post.

If the idea is to create the illusion of being secluded versus actually being secluded, as appears to be the case, then we are in lala land. If the idea is to LNT by changing color of shelter ( or clothing) then we are being silly. Nature is full of bright colors and we enjoy that when we encounter it.

LNT should change to LLT, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave NO trace; we should shoot for as little trace as possible ( while well knowing that NO trace does not exist unless one stays home, which is an option for those that worry about the color of a shelter).

As far as LNT advocating for muted colors and Roger calling that out as just an opinion, he is absolutely correct.

[David P]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@Nick- there shall be a spectrometer at the gate to determine the brightness of the hues you choose…walk through spectrometer, If it beeps loudly 3 times, you must turn around and remove a few bright items, including underwear,  replace with earth-tones. Repeat above until the spectrometer makes a pleasing sound, this signifies that less than 5% of park goers will be offended by the colors. The gate will then open and you may enter at that time.  Enjoy your hike (quietly)</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>@Paul. To be fair to your OP- I’m going to make a positive sandwich. I also think building  or modifying cairns is unnecessary, confusing and potentially detrimental to an inexperienced or unfamiliar hiker. The act and art of building one is a fun pastime, sure, but should be done at a beach, ones yard, or even the trailhead,  not deep in the backcountry where the spotlight needs to be on the official navigational cairns so they can do their job effectively. We have signage to dissuade folks from doing that here, too.</p>
In my own stealth camp operations I aim to go completely unseen. I enjoy the challenge of going unnoticed. I rarely camp at “epic” campsites (I’ll eat dinner there) but then retreat into the trees where there is some debris for stakes, less chance of a stray lightning strike, and my green tent is nearly invisible 50-100’ from trail.

kudos to you Paul, for making your own shelters. Awesome! That takes a LOT of skill and patience. I also build shelters , with a hammer and saw (I run my own Residential Construction company) we are a lot alike…

Ive never encountered another hiker in my mere 22 years of backpacking who was adversely affected by tent or clothing color.  Mainers just don’t care about that I guess, I’ve also done a plethora of all season hikes in California, Oregon, Utah, Colorado and Hawaii. We, in Maine, are so used to blaze orange it’s like wearing black in the city. Our most famous and crowded Acadia National Park has NOTHING in their literature about bright gear being frowned upon.  The only clothing advisory they give is to wear light clothing to spot ticks easier (an epidemic around here). When they espouse LNT it always refers to packing out trash, not building/adding to cairns, but never to tent color… Outlawing hunting in NPs hasn’t stopped some people here. People and deer have both been shot on MDI where it’s illegal. I do have a lot of respect for safe and sober hunters, I’m just overcautious because of the volatile mixing of drinking , four-wheeling, pickups and guns. I have experienced 4 gun related accidents and deaths just in my immediate family.

In your OP you suggest it’s ok (to you) for bright colors in the alpine to make rescue easier. People routinely need to be rescued by air or ground searches in summer months as well, why the disconnect? Of course a whistle and headlight help too. It’s been discussed here with some civility before. https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/77798/I think the negative push back you experienced here (not that you care) is how the OP was worded. It kind of came off as pretentious, presumptuous, intolerant and demeaning towards those with bright gear, with a petulant “better than thou” aftertaste. Maybe they just bought a yellow alpine tent and can’t afford the dirt brown one yet. Maybe they got it on super sale. Maybe they aren’t as obsessively fixated on how others choose their gear superimposed against a very (arguably the most) subjective LNT advisory… I would think after 60 years of backpacking you’d have a thicker callous around such things…

I love LNT or LLT :-) I am a courteous hiker, I always step aside to allow others to pass especially on steeps, I reciprocate respect and kindness to my elders. I move downed trees off the trail, I pack all my trash and happily pick up others litter, I am not obnoxiously loud, I don’t cut live tree branches for a bed or stack rocks, I don’t build campfires in summer or even kill mosquitoes. Do you? I share my food and water and other things with fellow hikers. I don’t bathe in the river. We can be different without it being negative. I am a 38 year old cancer survivor, I am happiest when hiking(and with my son). Solo, I am often preoccupied mentally processing heavy situational issues from daily life or fully immersed absorbing nature with a close friend or two. After hiking 20 miles over rough terrain someone’s tent color just doesn’t phase me… at all…not in the slightest… to each their own. I am not jealous that bright colors affect you so much, it must be awful. Neon has never Offended me, I grew up in the ‘80s. I think it’s great, it pops beautifully against the green grey forest.

An honest question, Is it JUST bright camping gear and JUST in the Sierras that impacts you negatively? Do “natural” bright colors have the same affect, do you have to avert your eyes to peak sunsets, colorful birds, fields of wildflowers, bright lichens, traditional African clothing? How about unnatural lighting, like television screens or fluorescent overhead lights? If yes, it might be an optical medical condition called Photophobia (light sensitivity) neon colors and brightness can trigger this and it can cause physical discomfort, aggravation  and migraines in some people, it can develop suddenly with no pre-existing conditions, it has a variety of physiological root causes and effective treatments…one is the f1-41 sunglass lenses. Like glaucoma glasses…

A bunch of tents is just a bunch of tents dotting the landscape, the color is arbitrary, to me anyway. To my untrained eye the green and grey ones “pop” just as much against the landscape as the purple and orange ones in these open daylight situations. Just a bunch of tents… then it gets dark. I can just hear the guy in grey tent on his cell “LNT police? Yeah, It’s a purple one, seize these inconsiderate oafs at once!” Commence senseless beatings… overdub repetitive, robotic, monotone recitation of LNT code infraction… “Stay out of sight… Stay out of sight…”I have a dream that all tents were created equal. The color of a mans tent fly is no more significant than the color of his eyes 👀      colors are prettymy positive sandwich is ready to eat now.  FIN

[Matt]

Way back in 2002, someone in an AT journal sarcastically accused their hiking partner of violating LNT principles because his shadow was disrupting the photosynthesis of nearby vegetation.  All these years later, I think it speaks to Katt’s point.

[Gary Dunckel]

I expect that most mycologists are fun guys (fungi?)

[Paul Wagner]

Thanks, David.

Nope, my eyes are not overly sensitive to either light or bring colors.  So not an issue. (as a trained musician, my ears may be more sensitive to some noises…but that’s another question)   And I appreciate your effort to inject a little humor into the discussion.  I knew that the way I presented this topic would stir up some responses, and even chose a title for the OP that would recognize this fact.  So fair enough.  And yes, my hide is plenty thick–hopefully my brain less so.

I also match your commitment to LNT pretty much principle for principle, with the exception of the mosquitoes.  I will kill any mosquitoes who land on my DEET soaked body…

The ranger with whom I do a lot of trail work tells a wonderful story about one of his first backpacking trips with the forest service, who provided an LNT mentor for the hike.  That mentor demanded that all of the hikers swallow their toothpaste each night to avoid affecting the wilderness.  When he was asked what he learned on the hike. my friend replied:  “Yep.  I learned that I am never going hiking with that guy again!”

As I have noted, those bright colors do serve a purpose in rescues–but as others have noted, so would a sleeping bag, a ground cover, or other device.  Same with hunting season.  I also remember Colin Fletcher in the Grand Canyon realizing that his orange tent was no help at all in those red sandstone cliffs; and he was only able to signal his food drop with a blue tarp he was using for his groundcover.

But LNT is not just some guy’s opinion. It is the result of many, many years of thoughtful experiences in hiking, all aimed at limiting the effects we have on other hikers.  I think most people here would admit that someone making loud music (or even just making a lot of noise) in the wilderness is impinging on the wilderness experience of others.  And more recently, we’ve seen a lot of trails that used to run right through the middle of meadows now being routed around those meadows, into the trees, to avoid the unsightly erosion those deep tracks cause in meadows.  And while it used to be quite common to pitch a tent in a meadow, these days that is often specifically prohibited.  We are now asked to camp only on durable surfaces.  No fire zones in high altitude areas, bear canisters, and carrying out your TP ( and even your human waste) are all aimed at trying to give each person in the wilderness a more natural and authentic wilderness experience.  All of those began with LNT, and are now accepted backcountry behavior.

I am perfectly happy to share my wilderness experience with others.  And yes, I also often head to less trafficked destinations when I want to avoid my fellow hikers.  But I also think that pitching a bright orange tent smack dab in the middle of a large granite slab that overlooks a lake is just a wee bit self-centered.  It seems to say “Look at me!  I got this epic campsite just like in the photos on the magazine cover.”  And it would be just as easy to pitch that tent off to the side, where you would get shade and be less noticeable—even more so if the tent were not international orange.  It’s somehow reassuring to me to see that many tent companies have now limited the use of those bring colors;  Just about all tarp/hammock companies do.  REI and others have moved to a much lower visibility tent.

Just sayin’

[Tom K]

“But LNT is not just some guy’s opinion. It is the result of many, many years of thoughtful experiences in hiking, all aimed at limiting the effects we have on other hikers.”

Funny, I always thought, or maybe hoped, to be honest, that it was primarily about limiting our impact on the environment in order to preserve it for its own inherent worth.  But I guess if that requires couching the issue in terms of limiting the impact of our behavior on other hikers in order to gain support for the rules, I shouldn’t be too surprised.  We are, after all, a supremely narcissistic species.

[Paul Wagner]

Here is what their website says:

“Leave No Trace provides research, education and initiatives so every person who ventures outside can protect and enjoy our world responsibly.”

 

[Tom K]

“Here is what their website says:

“Leave No Trace provides research, education and initiatives so every person who ventures outside can protect and enjoy our world responsibly.””

Which hopefully goes a bit beyond limiting one’s effect on other hikers.  If it were just that, there is no better solution, IME, than hiking where other hikers don’t generally venture.  In any case, the increasing number of manifestly uneducated backpackers on the trail systems makes a compelling case for an organization like Leave No Trace.  Render unto Caesar…….

[Roger Caffin]

Here is what their website says:

Have you seen what MY web site says? It says my organisation is the world authority on … something. But those are just words (or electrons).

Did YOU vote for that organisation in any way? Do they have delegated authority from the Feds, a State, or the National Parks legal body? Otherwise, on what do they base their so-called ‘authority’? And just how many of them are there?

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, which is just about long enough to become President of the USA.
The first part has been attributed to Lincoln, but this itself is disputed. It is also claimed they are the work of an obscure German-born minister from Brooklyn — by the name of William Boetcker — and they dated back to only 1916, 51 long years after Lincoln’s death.
The second part – I cannot remember the source. Can you?

Cheers

[Geoff Caplan]

I’m bemused by the hostility towards Leave No Trace in this thread.

It’s an organisation founded by a wide coalition of government agencies, conservation and youth NGOs, academic institutions and even the military who are concerned to preserve wild land. They carry out practical conservation initiatives, research and extensive international education programmes. Their 7 Principles seem to be generally sound.

All in all it seems like an admirable and much needed initiative. What in the name of goodness are you objecting to?

 

[Paul Wagner]

“Do they have delegated authority from the Feds, a State, or the National Parks legal body?”

Actually, in the USA, most of our national and state parks use LNT principles as guidelines for activities in the wilderness, for exactly the reasons the Geoff cites.

[Brad P]

When we tear down our bright tents, we leave no trace of that color.

Regardless of color, you have a tent in nature while you are camping. The color of the tent does not create any lasting impact.

[Paul Wagner]

To follow up on what Geoff wrote, here is what the National Park Service says about LNT:

“These principles were established by the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics, and built on work by the US Forest Service, National Park Service, and Bureau of Land Management in the mid 1980s. This relationship continues today. The principles are based on and informed by scientific research in the fields of recreation ecology and human dimensions of natural resources. Take a look at the science behind the principles on the Leave No Trace website.”

And just for Roger in Australia, here’s what NPA of New South Wales says: “We know we’re preaching to the converted here, but it’s worth refreshing the Leave No Trace Principles so you can clearly articulate them and their importance to others. Leave No Trace Australia is an organisation dedicated to inspiring and promoting responsible use of the outdoors through research, partnerships and education. The Leave No Trace guidelines describe best practice for visiting natural areas.”

 

[Kattt]

What if bright colors help people see how crowded a place really is and they decide to go elsewhere and so the environment is less crowded and less impacted?

I don’t see any hostility toward LNT here, just reasonable people calling out when some take things to silly places. I suppose you all carry out your urine, because the color of a tent leaves much less trace than your pee does.

[Katherine .]

I think of two main levels of LNT:

1. Stuff not to do because it hurts the environment, native plants, and native animals (important)
2. Stuff not to do because it’s temporarily annoying to other humans (please make an effort, but less important)

If tent color enough causes offense it’s in the much lesser category. And if a tent is marring the view, perhaps the placement is more of the issue than the color.

That said, I do prefer the neutral colors for summer.

[MJ H]

I suppose you all carry out your urine, because the color of a tent leaves much less trace than your pee does.

I boil my urine so I only need to carry out the solids. Of course, I can’t carry enough fuel for that, so I use a camp fire.

[Bruce Tolley]

Wow. This thread descended into silliness rather quickly.

The seven Leave No Trace Principles are just that principles, not laws or commandments.

The wilderness ethic behind LNT principles does not ban anything. They are guidelines for humans to make decisions for themselves based on a wilderness ethic given the context.  In winter and fall orange tents are probably a good thing. If you are hiking in Alaska 100 miles from any road, and wont see many other hikers, orange and red tents have a certain utility in case of emergency. The 7th principle of LNT is “be considerate of other visitors in the wilderness”. I suspect this principle motivates the web sites recommendation not to use orange tents since they might appear as “visual pollution”.

The sixth principle is Respect Wildlife. The fifth is Minimize Campfire Impacts. The fourth Leave What you Find, etc

Second, I think the LNT organization is one of the finest examples of multi-agency government-public cooperation we have here in the USA. Another example would be the continued cooperation and good relations between the US Forest Service and the PCT Association in the care and maintenance of the PCT.

Finally, of course it is virtually impossible to leave absolutely no trace when we visit the wilderness.  The stated goal of LNT is to minimize your own personal impact in order that the next human who comes to the same place will not see any obvious signs that you were there.

[Roger Caffin]

“These principles were established by the Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics, and built on work by the US Forest Service, National Park Service, and Bureau of Land Management in the mid 1980s.
I stand corrected.

In fact, we follow LNT principles very carefully, so that we leave no traces behind us. I just don’t think worrying about the colour of a tent which is pitched late in the evening and taken down early next morning matters in the slightest.
I worry far more about the amount of rubbish some people do leave behind them. Yes, we do carry some of it out.

Cheers

[Tom K]

“1.  Stuff not to do because it hurts the environment, native plants, and native animals (important)

2.  Stuff not to do because it’s temporarily annoying to other humans (please make an effort, but less important)

If tent color enough causes offense it’s in the much lesser category. And if a tent is marring the view, perhaps the placement is more of the issue than the color.”

+1  My sentiments exactly.

 

[moggie]

Personally I love seeing bright colors on gear. The colors make me happy.

[Author]

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