Big disappointment at REI brick-and-mortar store today

I was thinking of REI specifically, rather than Amazon, when considering whether locally owned business jobs were better or not. REI probably has better benefits and a higher starting salary than any local business where I live. I have to own up here, full transparency, my kid just got a job at our REI. Definitely better paying than any other option and some truly awesome benefits, like special days off outside. And long term there’s potential for a career and/or jobs elsewhere, again not an option with a locally owned business.

That said we have a local outdoors shop that I also heavily patronize. They have focused, as David suggested, on rentals – fat bikes, skis, snowshoes. And everyone renting skis buys snacks too, and maybe a buff or gloves, etc.  I hope they both stay in business here – REI and our own place.

“In my area, there were two really great gear shops that were small, independently-owned, and that carried quality stuff at good prices: despite this, REI and another chain store effectively killed them off at the dawn of the internet-shopping age when the big retailers were opening up anchor locations in various places.”

I think the causes of locally owned backpacking stores closing vary by location but they suffer more from competition from Amazon every day.  I used to shop at Mel Cottons, the only independent camping/backpacking store in the greater San Jose area. They carried Western Mountaineering, Dead Bird shells at 40% off,  and other interesting kit.  I don’t know specifics, but they were sitting on a piece of prime real estate. Every time I was there, the store had customers buying stuff. I suspect the family that owned the place just decided to sell the land and retire.

I have visited many REI locations all over the US and I’ve found they run the whole gamut from small with not much selection to large with a lot of inventory. For example, in metro Phoenix there’s a small REI store in Tempe and a big one in Paradise Valley. The store in San Diego is pretty small though.

I’ve also found the vast majority of REI sales associates possess a scant knowledge of ultralight. Many don’t even know what DCF is (more are becoming aware however) and most have never heard of ZPacks, MLD, or other cottage companies.There are exceptions, but the majority don’t have a basic understanding of materials such as denier, DWR, insulation types, etc. Among the younger ones, I see more climbers than backpackers, at least in the west. I do love REI when it comes to buying footwear though. Of course you can try the shoes on and then test them out on the high-angle ramp thingy they have in most of their stores. You’re able to try on packs too, which is nice, but most everything is heavy traditional with the exceptions being the Osprey Levity and Exos, or the REI Flash series. REI only carries mainstream gear and that’s understandable because they have to buy wholesale with considerable room for markup. Therefore most everything they carry is cranked out in Asia.

When I was in Louisville a few years ago (metro pop.1 million) I stopped into the city’s premier backpacking/ climbing/ kayaking store Questoutdoors. They’ve been in business since the 70’s and they carry a vast array of quality outdoor gear. But when I was in the store I asked the manager if they were the REI of Louisville. He got very defensive and said ” REI has considered locating to this city, but when they see our store and how much inventory we have they know we already have the market covered.” I later told a sales associate about the conversation and she said Questoutdoors is definitely afraid that REI will open a store in the Derby City. REI already has stores in Indianapolis (130 miles away), Nashville (170 miles) and Cincinnati (110 miles), but those cities all have metro populations of around 2 million.

Questoutdoors, only lists a portion of their inventory online and I don’t know why, however, they carry a nice selection of Western Mountaineering bags, which is something I’ve never seen at REI. You will pay retail though with practically no discounts.

https://www.questoutdoors.com/

I have worked at the local REI for 19 years now and have seen some changes both in our store and in the broader community.  Local shops of ALL types, not just outdoor shops, are slowly being replaced by national chains; rents are too expensive for many small businesses and start-ups, and COVID hasn’t helped.  The fact that REI has been in business for over 80 years says they are doing something right.  Is REI changing?  Sure!  They better be changing or they won’t be in business another 80 years.   Evolution doesn’t just apply to life forms.  It affects business, too.

I love my job, my coworkers, and the customers.  This job does not pay the mortgage, but it provides excellent benefits to part-time workers, reasonable schedule flexibility, good product training, and a pleasant work environment.  Every employee is not an expert on every niche in the outdoor world, but most have their passions and areas of interest in which they are very knowledgeable.  And there are several in our store who have completed through-hikes and know what DCF is.  In fact, it was through an in-store clinic some years ago that I was introduced to this website and the wonderful rabbit hole that is the world of lightweight backpacking.

REI has the “reach” now as they’re increasingly the only place to get canister fuel (alcohol stoves are less legal as wildfire keep increasing out west.  Of course there’s cold soak.  Yum.   Some of their in house gear has been slammed but still wish I had kept my original Flash pack.

Local shops of ALL types, not just outdoor shops, are slowly being replaced by national chains; rents are too expensive

That’s true.  Kicking the tires of Tucson AZ as a potential semi-retirement spot when I switch to biking and that’s the word from the locals.  They love their local shops but don’t think they’ll make it.

Hopefully Summit Hut does. As well as Arizona Hiking Shack in Phoenix.

Summit Hut .. Hiking Shack

Summit hut is still going in two locations but they had to move their second one into Oro Valley as REI put their Tucson location almost next door.

For Hiking Shack, REI has many locations in the ever expanding Greater Phoenix area, so not sure it’ll matter much as their clientele may be more “locals only”.

I’ve been an REI member since 1975, and have watched it change a lot over the years for better and worse. Really, though its corporate structure is that of a cooperative, I don’t really thinks it’s been much of a co-op (practically speaking) since the early 1980’s. I for one am glad it’s available for me locally (Bozeman, MT). Some credit it with the downfall of two of our local shops (Barrel Mountaineering and Northern Lights Trading), but the truth of the matter is the internet had already done the bulk of the damage… REI just fastened the casket lid. And we still have good local skiing and bike shops that are standing on their own despite REI’s presence.

Below is the link to a good article on REI… from the article, a couple of sentences from the last paragraph that echo my own observations:

”REI is not the quaint co-op it was. It’s hard to justify its co-op status at all. REI is a loyalty club with a wide benevolent streak. Despite the collateral damage it delivers, it’s the most conscious chain retailer I’ve ever heard of. I hope the pandemic—and this story—will prompt REI to self-reflect.”

https://www.outsidebusinessjournal.com/the-magazine/goliaths-reckoning/?__hstc=182365880.1687a3a2667a4e470c4a5304e6c01ee7.1614390525079.1614390525079.1614390525079.1&__hssc=182365880.1.1614390525080&__hsfp=2450057753

I wonder why the shortages of gas canisters in some areas? We have plenty! Sorry I can’t ship them to you. Everyone here has them – the outdoors shops, the big groceries, sports”man” stores, etc.

The REI location in Temp, AZ moved to Chandler. Luckily, most of the employees moved with it, including their excellent pack-fitter. Summit Hut seems to be doing okay by focusing on smaller brands that REI doesn’t carry and by appealing to Tuscon’s general good support of local businesses. Tucson would be a great place to retire to…I miss living there.

I do most of my shopping online because whenever I go to a store, their selection is so poor, I often have to order it online anyway. I went to REI to buy my Nemo Hornet 1P tent, but they only had the 2P model. Same thing with an Osprey hydration vest – they didn’t stock my size in store. Same thing with my friend’s Altra shoe sizes – only available online. Seems like a self-perpetuating cycle. The more online shopping that’s done, the less stores can afford to stock. And the less they have, the more you have to buy online.

Arizona Hiking Shack has managed to stay relevant by expanding into gear rentals and outdoor classes. You can rent all of the basic backpacking, canyoneering, and kayaking items you need there. They also offer classes such as Backpacking 101, Wilderness Survival, Kayaking, etc. One of the few places with the staff, knowledge and equipment to set you completely up for canyoneering.

Staff is all well seasoned and very knowledgeable. Some of them will tell you not to get too enamored with ultralight in Arizona because every bush or cactus will scratch, stab or cut you (does the same to thin UL gear). They carry Western Mountaineering bags as well as Deuter and Osprey packs. They’ve always been big on insisting you try a sleeping bag out on the floor (with pads provided) to make sure it’s the right bag for you. Cuts way down on returns.

https://www.hikingshack.com/

I think the “cuts way down on returns” part is crucial. What you’ve described with Ariz Hiking Shack has been my experience with all the local shops. They tend to orient themselves equally toward providing services as much if not more than selling the equipment. REI does this to some extend, but there is less of a personal touch. As has been mentioned, some people don’t value that personal touch, and I do feel to some extend that is a sad sign for future humanity (you don’t value the interactions you have with strangers? good luck everybody) but you can’t tell someone what they should value, you can only suggest it. I do value local shops getting you the right product (or at least close) the first time. REI and every big retail company factor returns into their pricing model (they’d be stupid not to!), which hurts all consumers – not as much product performance or customer service for the money.  A $500 WM sleeping bag and a $500 REI/Big Brand sleeping bag are not created equal.

I do feel to some extend that is a sad sign for future humanity (you don’t value the interactions you have with strangers? good luck everybody)

When the strangers are sometimes people who want you dead, or at least didn’t welcome you, it does change your interest in interacting with them. Those might have been the good old days for some, but not for all. We are a broken society, but for some people, we always were.

Context, Karen, but I am sorry you feel that way.

I have a hard time with old people. And I’m one of them. “Back in my day….” old man shakes fist. Happens with every generation, and we never escape it! Things weren’t better in 1970 guys.

I was commenting on the value of personal interactions in general, that they are to be valued – and if we as a culture prefer ordering our coffee from a vending machine rather than a human, there is something wrong with that. There is something cold and mechanical about preferring to order your supplies online or from a huge box store where you can avoid to a large degree most human interactions. It is not good for us to default to this type of activity – I was not commenting on my past experiences or anyone else’s.

I order online these days for many of the same reasons already mentioned on this thread – limited options in stores, or because companies hire people that have zero desire to actually help me as a customer. I frequent our smaller hardware store in town because the people they hire seem to genuinely care to help, and they know where to go in the store to find what I need. Home Depot workers are typically not good at either of those tasks. My experience at my local REI is better than what some others get, apparently. I think it is probably because it is a small store and the times I go in, it is pretty quiet.

Jenny and I are lucky to be living in the Boulder, CO area (at least until last Tuesday’s mass shooting). That grocery store is very close to a special store called Neptune Mountaineering.

Gary Neptune founded that store in the early ’70s. He was a very accomplished mountaineer, with many serious climbs like Everest under his belt. 4-5 years ago he decided to retire and he sold his great store to a conglomerate based out of Austin, TX. That company promptly went bankrupt, but at least Gary got his money first. Then, several store workers that were also serious climbers thought of buying the store at a good price. One guy even made up some red ball caps that had a logo “Make Neptune’s Great Again.” None of the employees wanted one of those hats, with Boulder being such a Democratic town. A friend that worked at the store had one of the hats that he was going to drop off at Goodwill, and he gave it to me. It’s my newest favorite ball cap, because of its funk value.

Then a great thing happened – the conglomerate had to sell all the inventory in their 6 stores. The only store that had enough space to do that was the Neptune’s store, so everything was sent here. Being a serious fire sale, all items were priced at 20-30% of regular retail. A $200 TNF jacket went for $40 and a titanium Jetboil cost only $30. Boulder got some great deals!

Then another great thing happened. The Sea-to-Summit U.S. representative happens to live in Boulder, and he sensed an opportunity. He contacted the company’s headquarters in Perth, Australia, and they decided to buy Neptune’s, which was relatively cheap. S-to-S proceeded to totally remodel the store. They built display cabinets to better show off Gary’s incredible mountaineering memorabilia collection, and they even created a wine and latte bar next to a small meeting room.

Neptune’s has always specialized in carrying the finest quality mountaineering equipment, including packs, skis, snowshoes, ropes, ‘biners, bivy sacks – everything one needs to do a climb like Everest. No junk is sold in the store, which makes it even more unique among outdoor retail stores. They also have a fairly complete camping section, but again, only the finest brands of stoves, canister fuel, tents, etc. S-to-S carried on Gary’s vision perfectly.

So, there are some stores that Amazon can’t quite compete with…

Bought my first rope (Goldline, soft finish) at REI. Wished I still had it to show the young whippers. REI still has a reasonable amount of rock gear.

Bought my first kern mantle rope at Neptune’s.

“…they even created a wine and latte bar next to a small meeting room.”

That is a very smart move for a retail store. Capture some revenue and high profit margin from the casual visitor.

Yeah, Neptune came to mind when reading this thread. Great renovation and good inventory. Nice people working there, but mostly kids who don’t know as much as they think they do. Hopefully some of them will stick around and learn.

Yes, Dan, there are some “rookies” working at Neptune’s, but they are mostly nice kids. Still, there are a lot of seasoned veterans in their sports (mostly climbers and serious x/c skiers) that have stayed on. I like to drop in occasionally, look around a bit for sales items, and chat with the old guard if they aren’t too busy. And there’s always a latte to be had.

I need to head over to see if they were at all affected by that shooting that happened Tuesday at the nearby King Soopers grocery store. Maybe look for a discounted Rab jacket, and, you know, have a leisurely latte…

I need to head over to see if they were at all affected by that shooting that happened Tuesday at the nearby King Soopers grocery store. Maybe look for a discounted Rab jacket, and, you know, have a leisurely latte…

It’s my neighborhood. The actual shooting activity was contained to KS and the north parking lot, but there were literally hundreds of first responder vehicles everywhere, and the press are still camped out. There is a shrine growing along temporary fencing on the Table Mesa side, and people are parking everywhere to visit and bring flowers.  The Neptune/Whole Foods side is more normal, but yeah, everyone’s affected big time. One of the victims bagged my groceries for 20 years; my wife adored her. Not sure it will ever be the same TBH, but I know I need to go back and shop there again as soon as it opens,

I hesitate to even mention this for fear of triggering a political discussion. Hopefully that won’t happen. We’re not going to fix these problems on BPL.

Dan, sorry to hear about your loss.

Many thanks, Karen. We’re just very sad, about Terri especially. Obviously the families are the ones who are really devastated.