Big disappointment at REI brick-and-mortar store today

Whataboutism is not going to solve anything!

I’m not sure that I agree: asking the question can lead to awareness, and awareness of problems is usually required for solutions to be affected.

I could care less about business practices in other countries…

That is an interesting perspective, given both your preceding and antecedent comments on the matter; an awareness or interest in those practices would seem to be somewhat necessary…but perhaps I misunderstood you.  A question of clarification, though: would you consider business ethics subordinate to nationalism?

It’s not just outdoor consumer goods: everything from electronics to chips to chemicals – you name it and the US is essentially hostage to “overseas” manufacturers. Our manufacturing base has been hollowed out not by anyone else but ourselves!

In what way do you suggest altering that state of affairs?  In your opinion, is it a simple investment of “capital, equipment, people, and time” as you posted previously, or do you see other factors/practices that would need to be put into play?

You don’t like what they do, don’t do business with them!

Agreed!

While they certainly seem to attract and select board members who are much more qualified business people than most members, I suspect it’s one big reason they’ve left behind the climber/backpacker-centric practices:

Agreed…and as others have mentioned: they’re playing to their strengths – and to the biggest customer base – in a vicious market.

Remember when a member could self-nominate to stand for election to the board?  Now it’s only nominees selected by the existing board and only for the number of open seats so all BOD elections are non-competitive.  While they certainly seem to attract and select board members who are much more qualified business people than most members, I suspect it’s one big reason they’ve left behind the climber/backpacker-centric practices:

Yes, it crossed my mind before you mentioned it.

Regarding weights . . . There was a time when all the stores had scales strategically placed throughout the store.

REI used to sell all the leading edge backpacking gear and lots of repair parts too. Most of the old gear I share occasionally was purchased from REI.

But they have changed with the times. A lot of their stores are smaller (less offerings) than some of their large stores. I rarely buy new gear anyway.

“would you consider business ethics subordinate to nationalism?”

My opinion shouldn’t matter!

Serious thread drift….my apologies!

“Business ethics” is a very interesting term encompassing a wide range of issues.

The US government (and many US consumers) are always pointing at the “business practices”, worker abuses in China and other countries. Meanwhile no one wants to address rampant abuse and near third world living and working conditions of farm workers, workers in meat processing plants etc right here in the US. Just visit farms in California’s Central valley or Watsonville or vineyards in Napa and Sonoma counties among many others and you’ll see these workers living in crowded conditions. No one wants to talk about this – these are “foreigners”, in fact “illegals”. The agriculture sector wouldn’t survive without this constant supply of underpaid “illegal” workers.

We need to take a long hard look at our own “business ethics” before we start pointing fingers and lecturing the world.

I feel attacked here :) I bought yoga pants and a Yeti mug in one trip to REI. I also drove to a National Park in my Subaru later that month (to go backpacking though).

BPL isn’t REI’s main customer base. But I see a lot of backpackers who basically only buy and use gear that REI sells. They don’t care enough to look elsewhere.

I wonder why REI had such a bad financial year though. Record numbers of new hikers and campers in 2020. Was it all lack of inventory? New hikers and campers not buying at REI?

Don’t know. I’ve shopped at the Seattle mother ships since the early 80’s. I’ve found the staff to be friendly, but not necessarily useful. I, like others, buy fuel and random food in search of something to apply my 20% member discount. Still, they are an important part of our ecosystem and should be supported when it makes sense.

Are they cottage industry or super UL-friendly?  No.

Are they vastly better, in every way, than Cabela’s, Big-5 and Walmart?  Duh.

Rex, I would say that most of what you noticed is not specific to REI. Having visited Whole Foods and Home Depot every week all this year, I have noticed that many regular older employees are gone; many younger employees are certainly less knowledgeable; stock is variable and there are obvious signs of supply-chain problems; stores are constantly changing inventory to find the mix of the most profitable items. At REI I did notice a major store layout and stock change two or the years ago, where it seemed like they thinned-back their offerings.

My problem with REI is more existential, which is the relentless drive to sell more stuff. We all need stuff, but how much stuff? And can the stuff we buy impact the environment less?

My local REI has everything you could need for camping or backpacking, plus climbing, cycling, paddling, etc.. I don’t see any empty shelves. I think most of the products I buy there are high quality; I spend a lot there! It’s kind of scary, actually. I have returned a few things and my last 3 person tent was REI brand and died a terrible death (got a refund). But mostly I’m happy with their products and services. There isn’t as much variety in freeze dried food right now; that’s about the only “shortage” I’m seeing. And there’s enough, just not a lot of choice.

Our store is popular with plenty of customers, 100% masked, a policy enforced at the door.  The staff are a mix; some really know their stuff and others are younger, newer and less experienced in the outdoors. I don’t mind if they are up front about what they don’t know about a product, or have to check with a colleague. I have to assert myself sometimes because some staff see an older, overweight woman customer and assume I have no idea what I’m doing, rather than someone almost their grandma’s age who’s been backpacking, camping, skiing and boating since long before they were born. One guy trying to fit me for a backpack drove me insane. I had to leave and come back later when he wasn’t there. He just didn’t know what he was doing. Another guy told me I wouldn’t need rain pants in Alaska. He told me the rain showers end quickly and everything dries up. LOL!!! Not sure where he came from. I hope no one dies following his advice.

I bought my Yakima rack from REI, and also my recreational kayaks, which fit onto the rack – totally human powered once they’re on the water. I couldn’t afford the expensive racks to fit my cheapo car.

I’d like to see the cooperative model be promoted more and have REI look less like every other mall chain. But I don’t know the financial end of it at all. When I joined the Minneapolis store many years ago (there was only one!), they sold used gear as well as some newer stuff. It was a pretty earthy, granola place back then. I remember the sales staff even smelled kind of outdoorsy!

I still shop there a lot. Most of my hiking clothes, socks, shoes, water filters, stoves, etc. all come from REI. Works for me.

Everyones talking about the big hit, closed factories, slowed production, etc that the industry worldwide took, “explaining” why there is such shortages in the stores locally. However, if it’s such a big hit, why is everything so available online? Why are we being directed by REI employees and elsewhere to buy it online? Get online, buy online, are you online? Are you OnBoard? I’ve never had one issue with available stock for something online this whole past year -for anything. But when I go to a brick and mortar theres shortages. Questions, questions that have no answers. Maybe I’m not so much asking questions but making statements

Since we didn’t earn a profit in 2020, we don’t have those profits to provide to members in the form of a dividend. Even though we didn’t make a profit last year, you’ll receive a member reward equivalent to what your dividend would have been: 10 percent back on your eligible full-price purchases in 2020.

Hey! So they legitimately are a non profit for reals now..

*$$$ hands over fists

My opinion shouldn’t matter!

I would say that it certainly matters.  Good answers, by the way; thanks for taking the time.

My problem with REI is more existential, which is the relentless drive to sell more stuff.

From the perspective of sales and running a successful business in a market economy, I understand the motivation…but like you, I question the end results.

If consumers did not want more stuff, there would not be a retail business.

I buy consumables and base layers and do my Christmas shopping at REI.  I also occasionally participate in their outdoor classes.

My local Sierra Club chapter has partnered with them to do outreach for our introduction to snow camping classes (before COVID).

Yes I have packs and shelters from cottage manufacturers but IMO REI provides a real service to consumers and employs local folks.

Just like with bikes or hardware or books, if we don’t buy stuff from local bricks and mortar stores, we will only be left with Amazon.

BPL isn’t REI’s main customer base

No, probably due to the return lines.  I remember when REI sold the first GoLite frameless packs … briefly.  Regular gear has gotten lighter as REI offers the full priced brands, but also their own cheaper brand – the later still better than the big box in-house stuff.

They are also multi-sport at the expense of maybe specializing in a local area.  They do a lot of good advocacy for trails and access that no one else can do.  That makes their numbers different than a private gear retailer.   I really dislike any role they played in the demise of local “brick and mortar” gear stores (Albuquerque and Santa Fe NM locals went out of biz about 15 years ago, and even “Adventure 16” had to throw in the towel in urban Southern California.. Los Angeles and 1 in San Diego).

Even over 10 years ago, it started leveling off against mail-order gear company’s like Backcountry (UT), Moosejaw (MI – know they have a storefront in Detroit, though it’s most soft goods), Backcountry Experience (Eugene OR) and of course Campmor.  The closest is probably EMS as they make some of their own stuff.   Now online mail order lost its sale tax advantage..

 I really dislike any role they played in the demise of local “brick and mortar” gear stores…

In my area, there were two really great gear shops that were small, independently-owned, and that carried quality stuff at good prices: despite this, REI and another chain store effectively killed them off at the dawn of the internet-shopping age when the big retailers were opening up anchor locations in various places.  I’ve missed those shops…so much so, in fact, that I’ve often wondered if it’s time for someone to open a small shop that carries the cottage brands and that REI and Co. simply cannot compete against.  Before I make that kind of investment, though, I would have to spend a lot of time assessing the market and making connections with the manufacturers…and even then it would be dicey, methinks.

The supply chain problems from that ship in the Suez canal is going to make things worse.

You can probably get more things online than in your local REI because of the centralization of the inventory.

Our REI was closed to entry at the beginning of the pandemic. You could only order online and then pick it up in the parking lot. After a while you could go inside but there was a long line. Now there’s no line and you can go inside quickly. Santa Barbara REI is well-stocked with lots of products. We have a lot of outdoor sports around here.

I’ve often wondered if it’s time for someone to open a small shop that carries the cottage brands and that REI and Co. simply cannot compete against.

@bon-zo

Unfortunately, I don’t think that would work as most folks will choose to shop online if it saves them a few dollars. The overhead for stores is sizable and backpacking — especially ultralight backpacking — is still a niche hobby.

Also, with so many of those new to the hobby and/or new and younger doing all their research and buying almost exclusively online (just look at the Ultralight Reddit, for example, which has over 300,000 subscribers, many of the 20-30 age group)  they don’t realize what they’re missing by not having a brick-and-mortar store to go into. It’s really sad, but the value of having stores just isn’t appreciated by as many folks anymore.

I have many more thoughts on this, but I’d probably just start rambling and create unhealthy thread drift.

Agreed, Mark; that’s why I said it would be dicey…and I’m not even confining the idea to ultralight-only stuff.  In my opinion, cottage products in general need more exposure to the general public: the biggest thing that seems to be keeping those businesses small is simple lack of awareness.  Sure, there are other issues, but that’s a big one…and places like REI certainly aren’t helping the issue.  So, maybe in the exact right location, a cottage-industry shop could work, but I’m not in that location.

I have many more thoughts on this, but I’d probably just start rambling and create unhealthy thread drift.

Start another thread, then!

I’m not even entirely sure what my thoughts are, I just know I have them : )

So probably not thread-worthy yet. But I’ll keep it in mind for a future Unpacked column on BPL.

If you’re sad about local shops closing, you’re about to be a lot more sad. The future is not looking good for small, local businesses. It’s been in the works long before internet shopping, perhaps starting with Walmart and McDonalds beating out local places as part of their intentional business strategy. Internet and now Covid are accelerating that trend; the big entities can survive. I have to ask though, were those local shops really providing good jobs to anyone other than the owners?

This comment about younger generations – “they don’t realize what they’re missing” – and they don’t care, they really don’t. That sentence needs a bunch of memes and laughter emojis attached, honestly; do any of us miss dial telephones? Things change. It’s their world and it will be what they want it to be (hopefully). All us old grumblers can just rock in our chairs now and tut tut. Those same young people do care however, about jobs vanishing, and that trend will continue as well. We’re about to see far worse than the loss of local shopping pleasures for the middle class, with an ever more unstable and violent society and major economic stratification as we haven’t seen in many years. Hold onto the arms of your rocking chairs.

I have to ask though, were those local shops really providing good jobs to anyone other than the owners?

In many cases, yes, small businesses absolutely provide good jobs by any rational and reasonable definition of “good.”

To the question: “I have to ask though, were those local shops really providing good jobs to anyone other than the owners?”

If they were a hardware store or a bike shop, they employed at least some seasonal folks.  They might not have been “good jobs” but they were jobs. More important, the owners most of the time lived in the community and spent their income in the community which provides jobs in the community.

Amazon does not spend money or invest in my local community. Its impact to date on downtown Seattle seems negative in terms of housing shortages, increased rents and traffic congestion.  The jury is still out on the impact of a local Amazon distribution center in your neighborhood but early indications are that their impact is negative in terms of local jobs, job safety, and environmental parameters such as air quality. Perhaps if some unionization efforts succeed, the types and quality of jobs will improve.

I have to ask though, were those local shops really providing good jobs to anyone other than the owners?

I learned a lot of good skills working for small businessmen, a lot of skills that still help me get things done today. They also paid me way better than REI ever would, because they taught me skills that did not involve directing people what shirt to buy. They provided me with much more than monetary compensation.

In the early and mid 1980s I worked at The Wilderness Supply in Castro Valley, CA.  It had been a department of a cooperative grocery store, until the grocery store coop shut down and the former manager acquired it.

Was it a “good” job?  For me, at the time, in my early-20s, not ready for a 9-to-5 job, vacationing many months each year, yeah.  It was a fun place to work – basically an adult toy store.  People enjoy spending money on their toys. And they like to chat about their hobby.  All the employees walked the walk, literally; we offered classes, local weekend backpacking trips and 8-day trips in the Sierra.

Even back then, before any ecommerce, the REI store 20 miles away in Berkeley made it difficult for a small shop to be viable.  Of course they had greater selection and covered more sports.  We offered more rentals then they did (including snow boots and ski bibs that families really appreciated for annual church sledding trips).  Our employees were a lot further along the nascent UL journey than REI employees.

So people tended to buy their tent, sleeping bag, and backpack from REI and then get their food, maps, and DEET for a particular trip from us.

As much as the employees all liked the “hardware”, it also took selling “software” – people agonize over and price shop for their stove and tent but not for a new piece of clothing.

The advent of self-inflating sleeping pads, yoke suspension systems, MSR stoves, and polypro underwear probably kept it going for several more years – we’d demo how much better they were and get impulsive sales.

If I ran a small shop now, there’s a lot of UL gear that I could/would promote that they’d never hear about from REI.  But if it were available for a lot less online, it would be hard to keep customers happy when they found they paid 30% more to buy locally.  But being in such a recreational destination, I think it could work with lots of rentals – you’re not bringing your canoe with you and no one else rents a decent one.  My highest margin rental would be bear spray – $10 to rent and since you never use, I’d keep renting them out, over and over again.

And I’m brainstorming now, but I think I’d also offer tested gear: There’d be BRS-3000T stoves, unopened on the wall, but right next to it, would be an “Opened, tested once on our workbench” option.

And, somewhat uniquely since you can’t fly with some items, I’d offer loans / swap outs / refills on hazardous items: DEET, butane, bear spray, white gas stoves, etc.  That gets people into the store at the beginning and ending of their trip which makes for other impulse purchases.

Was it a “good paying job”?  You couldn’t pay a California mortgage on it.  But for a young outdoorsy person still leaving at home or attending college, it made a better part-time job than other retail because 1) it was fun and 2) respected your time off for trips – we’d jiggle schedules to make everyone’s trips work, and 3) the employee-discount on gear.

The jury is still out on the impact of a local Amazon distribution center in your neighborhood but early indications are that their impact is negative in terms of local jobs, job safety, and environmental parameters such as air quality.

A major distribution hub recently opened up near my town: the overall impact hasn’t been great.  Not many higher-paying jobs created, tons of employee rollover, and the huge tax incentives given to Amazon haven’t helped anyone but Amazon themselves.  No idea what the air quality impact is, but we have hundreds of Amazon trucks on the local streets, anymore.