Advice on clothing upper layers for fringe 3 season

The easiest and lightest way I’ve found to stretch the sleeping comfort another 10F lower is to use a light weight VBL. Using one (along with long undies, light fleece and light down parka) I’ve slept fine down to 15F with a 30F mummy bag in a TT Notch. While my clothing is slightly clammy when I wake up, it seems to dry out within a few minutes or so while I take down the tent.

However, if you happen to sweat a lot, then a VBL may not work well for you. People seem to either tolerate VBLs OK, or they absolutely hate them. Only way to know is to try one out in the back yard on a nice cold night. Here’s good thread about making your own 3 oz VBL by heat welding some large trash bags together:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/84398/

As for your clothing, you might also consider a warmer down parka for shoulder season, maybe a Montbel Alpine Light.

Obvious solution is a “real” down coat with 4+ oz of fill.  You could add another lighter coat or a vest to achieve the same end, but for more weight and less efficiency.

Add some cap4/t2 long johns

add a midweight down/synth poofay that can be layered over yr montbell

add some warmer socks and gloves, and a beanie

if u need more sleeping insulation add a light synthetic quilt that goes over yr current one, and add more head insulation

add a thin foam pad under yr current sleeping pad if its not enuff

And thats all there is to it

;)

A big +1 on the thin foam pad under your current sleeping pad. When it drops below 25F or so, you’ll notice it’s much warmer to put the thin pad (1/8″ is fine) between your body and your regular pad, especially if you use an inflatable. When it’s warmer, you can either leave the thin pad at home, or put it under your inflatable pad to help protect it if you like. Gossamer Gear makes a nice 1/8″ foam pad that’s light and inexpensive.

Sleeping i’m ok. I’m actually in a hammock and have a really nice under quilt. As per vapor barriers, that isn’t my thing. I have tried VB’s in the past and found I sweat like a champ in my sleep. I’m mainly cold after dinner when I’m just hanging out. I’m kinda a night owl so I have a lot of awake nighttime cold to deal with before bed. I’m good on my lower body, hands, feet and head just my mid body is cold. I may consider a heavier jacket but I really didn’t want to have to buy another down poof.

How adaptable are your quilts?  You can wrap one around you while you hang out in camp, etc.  Not as easy to use as a fitted jacket, but you’re already carrying it so no extra weight or cost.

I have a setup similar to yours, with the exception that I use a hooded Cap4 (or equivalent) as the only base layer and my light poofy (Stoic Hadron) has a hood.  I went on a cooler trip (similar to the temps you mention) this past weekend and was plenty warm.  I made one addition: a Borah down vest over my poofy.  It’s about 4 ounces and had just the right amount of added boost I needed without replacing my warmer weather 3 season gear.

You need a bigger down jacket. I recommend a montbell mirage down jacket. Of course that’s a lot of money to spend but you should get a lot of use of it.

Your other option is to just carry more layers of whatever you already own and layer it all together.

Ok, So Im now looking at add a new down poof. The Mirage might be out of my price range (wife), but the Alpine Light Down Parka might be in it. I like the idea of a hood since I have been using a Zpacks down hood with my UL inner anyway. This jacket puts me about 2.2 oz more of down than I currently have. The weight is 13.3 but I’m sure thats a size medium and Im and XL. I don’t mind adding a few oz’s to be comfy. Am I heading in the right direction here or should I just throw a fleece on my pack?

I’m not sure if you are in a dry climate or a damp climate, but I would think about getting a warmer down jacket and then wearing the cap 4 hoody as your base layer and then throwing a 100 wt fleece over that as your mid layer…I think you’ll actually be more comfortable since cap 4 wicks better than cap 2 and 100 wt fleece really breathes.

AVOID “WAFFLE” OR GRID PATTERNS ON THE INSIDE OF SYNTHETIC BASE LAYERS.

The pattern will irritate you on your forearms and where you pack straps and pack back put pressure on your body. And those patterns itch like he!!.

Eric,

I disagree with you…If yours does this, the problem is that it doesn’t fit correctly.  My Cabela’s ECWS thermal zone tends to do this..it’s tight at the neck and the forearms.  My cap 4 does not do this at all.

The problem is fit, not grid fleece.

Disagree with Eric as well, sorry.   Love my R1.

+1 with all the advice for a more puffy puffy.

The Alpine Light is a fine option, and a good bargain.  It really depends on how often you think you’ll end up in sub-freezing temps.  If it’s at all a semi-regular occurrence, or you think you might go out more often if you could stay warmer in camp, bumping up to the Frostline might be money well spent.  It’s nice to actually be able to enjoy crisp evenings, and nothing makes that simpler than a fat down coat.

The MIRAGE is on sale in size XL :0

You might also consider a uniqlo vest. Mine comes in at just over 5 ounces for a size medium. Obviously not as down stuffed as something cottage but its a great bargain at around $50 bucks.

Personally I would just add a fleece. I’m a big believer in having some of your insulation weight devoted to insulation that works for movement and tolerates the worst of wet weather.

Someone mentioned, but I didn’t see you address it.  If you’re warm sleeping and you’re only talking about unexpected (or even expected) cold weather, why not just wrap up in your quilt/sleeping bag?  Also are you layering your rain coat with everything else?  You mentioned not liking vbl’s.  I don’t either, but I don’t mind a partial vbl and always put on my raincoat when I am cold.

Yes Ben I will use my rain jacket but it’s my last layer so it doesn’t make me sweat like vb close to my skin. I have wrapped up in my quilts before but try to stay away from it do to damage to them. My quilt fabric is 7d from Ti Goat and I have found its pretty delicate .

Another vote for more down, whether from additional layer or, preferably, a warmer jacket.
Minus the Cap4 midlayer, our clothing looks similar. When temps are dropping into the lower 20s at night, I swap out the lighter puffy(mine is a full-zip BC Hadron w/2oz 850 fill) for an Alpine Light Down Parka, and all is well again.
I can see the added versatility of an extra layer being attractive, but it means yet another piece of gear plus potentially more weight and bulk than a standalone jacket with more insulation. You have options, either way.

The pattern will irritate you on your forearms and where you pack straps and pack back put pressure on your body. And those patterns itch like he!!.

Off topic, but I recently had this experience caused by the seams in a thin poly base layer under overloaded shoulder straps. It gouged into me for four or five hours before I realized and switched shirts. It didn’t so much itch as hurt like he!! for the next day.

I would add my vote for a down jacket with 3.5oz plus of 800 fill or higher down.  For the temps you are describing, my camp wear is Paty mid weight base layer on legs, Lukes wind pants, 100wt fleece pullover, Houdini, FF Hyperion vest (3.5oz down), Lukes down hood (1oz of down), wind pro gloves, and I will throw my Packa over the whole thing for good measure.  Sitting I can pull the Packa over my legs, but If I am still cold just sitting there I go to bed.

Somewhat off topic, but still potentially related. I plan on trying some 1/2″ Dry Fast open celled foam based insulation in some crazy conditions–below freezing outside temps and dunking in very cold hill/mountain streams (ah, the things we higher blend experientialists do for truth).

If i survive*, i’ll report back on how well or not it works. I’ll try to get video of it too.  If it works well, i’ll be leaving Down, Apex, etc for good in most areas (for clothing at least).

*I’ll have back up traditional insulation (over warm), multiple ways to start a fire (and things pre set up for a fire), and hopefully another person there, so i’ll most likely survive. (sorry to disappoint a few BPL folks on that).

Thanks for the advice everyone. So what I ended up doing is I ordered a Montbell Alpine Light Down Parka to use in place of my Montbell inner jacket. My layering will change as well for that time of year too. I will now wear the Capilene 4 Thermal hoody next to skin, covered with my Houdini while hiking. If cold still, I will then add a 1/4 100 wt fleece (replacing the cap2) on top of the cap4 with the Houdini on top. In camp the Alpine Parka will come out for the evening. I’m hoping that should keep me toasty till I crawl into bed. I will still have my rain shell if needed. Sound good?

https://lighterpack.com/r/3olbvx

Hi Kurt,

My layering system for the fringe season is somewhat similar to yours, except I usually don’t carry a separate insulating midlayer (in your case a 100wt fleece). I usually hike with my Cap 4 hoody next to skin and on top of that I use the Squamish Hoody to block the wind. If I get cold using those two alone, I usually throw my hardshell jacket on top of those two. Mine is made of Polartec Stretch NeoShell, so it’s somewhat breathable (meaning better than a trash bag). If the temps are below 40-45F it seems to work well, no excessive sweating. This system saves me from bringing an extra midlayer. If you have time to experiment, this could also work for you.

Anybody else use your hardshell jacket to boost warmth a bit when getting cold while hiking, when the temps are low?