Oct 8, 2007 at 5:04 pm #1225363
ID PLQ Jacket
BMW Cocoon 60 Pant
FF 40degree Quilt (gear swap,on its way)
1/4" closed cell foam
Silnylon drop cloth
Conditions in my part of the Sierras have had little nighttime wind, 9000'-12000', temps to 30degrees, low humidity. All of which are due to change.
First off, can I get away with out the bivy until I get hold of one? I've got an MLD Superlight on order but I'm wavering on the shipping delays and another consideration, plus I'm researching MYOG bivy and quilt designs (the FF 40degree is temporary). I guess my main concern is with drafts.
Also, what about head insulation without the balaclava?
My system to date: lay down the drop cloth, torsolite and pack, mummy on top, tarp or tarp/tent or none depending on conditions. I'm not clear on the use of a torso length pad and pack combo with a quilt. Or: pad, pack, and 1/4" foam with quilt. Can you use the torso length/pack combo inside a bivy?
-michaelOct 8, 2007 at 5:42 pm #1404874
Mark VerberBPL Member
@verberLocale: San Francisco Bay Area
Given the system that you have listed I would say you can do without a bivy. I have found that with my quilt cinched up, that drafts have only been a minor annoyance when I move a lot. When I am still I haven't had draft issues, even with reasonably strong winds. I would suggest taking a couple of trips without a bivy, and only add a bivy if you need it.
As far as a hat goes… you just want something warm and that protections your neck. In the past I have used a combination of a warmish hat (OR Fall Line, wool watchcap with thermolite, golite snow cap, etc) and a neck gaitor (or polarbuff). I only put on my down balaclava when it's below 30F. My down balaclava is from downworks. I think it cost $23 and weights 2.4oz.
I have used a torso pad + pad in a bivy… it worked fine. I don't use that system anymore because I switched back to a more comfortable pad and found I didn't need the bivy.Oct 8, 2007 at 5:47 pm #1404875
The one item on your list I have no experience with is the FF Quilt, but… your kit sounds reasonable to me for temps down to freezing, without a bivy. (Ignoring the dozen or more variables, of course!) Until you've seen for yourself, I'd definitely suggest an extra item of head insulation. A fleece balaclava would give you a better margin for comfortable experimentation. Draft issues with a bivy-less quilt setup will depend on how much you toss and turn, how the quilt girth fits you, and how exposed your campsites will be.Oct 8, 2007 at 5:49 pm #1404876Oct 8, 2007 at 5:51 pm #1404877
sorry, squirrelly website issues… admin please delete.Oct 8, 2007 at 5:53 pm #1404878Oct 8, 2007 at 11:08 pm #1404899
Doug JohnsonBPL Member
@djohnsonLocale: Washington State
Short answer- spend some money. :-)
I've found three key components to a quilt/tarpt system in cold temps: warm headgear, a bivy, and thoughtful ground insulation.
Headgear- After several years with quilts, I go heavy on this insulation. I personally use a Cocoon Hoody and a Cocoon balaclava in those temps. I'd go for a warm insulated balaclava and a thing fleece balaclava underneath. Might be conservative, but I've found this to be key in a quilt system.
The bivy is key. I move around when I sleep which gives drafts and if winds pick up, you lose even more heat. The bivy is a key part of staying warm and I almost always use one under about 50 deg. (more above treeline). However, if you have a larger tarp that pitches to the ground, pick a spot carefully, and don't thrash when you sleep like me, you'll probably be fine.
At 30 deg., I think a torsolite alone will be cold. I'd go for your long Thinlight, the pack, and a Torsolite at those temps.
I spent some pretty uncomfortable nights in the beginning when learning to push a light quilt to cooler temps. I think you may want to be wiser than I was and go warmer. You can always ditch items on your next trip.
One caveat- I tend to be a bit of a cold sleeper.
Have a great trip!
DougOct 9, 2007 at 2:58 am #1404903
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
>Headgear- After several years with quilts, I go heavy on this insulation. I personally use a Cocoon Hoody and a Cocoon balaclava in those temps. I'd go for a warm insulated balaclava and a thing fleece balaclava underneath. Might be conservative, but I've found this to be key in a quilt system.
Yeah, I'd go along with that. Your head may not FEEL cold, but it will be stripping heat from the rest of your body. keep it warm!Oct 9, 2007 at 5:21 am #1404911
todd harperBPL Member
@funnymoLocale: Sunshine State
I'm not trying to simply repeat what Roger said!
However his point about not FEELING cold is very true for me. Even in cold temps my head may not be uncomfortable, but my torso or shoulders may feel the cold if I don't cover my head. Very interesting how that works!Oct 9, 2007 at 10:40 am #1404939
Thanks everyone. I'm sold on the head insulation needs. And, Doug, I studied your gear list in prep and I've no doubt your solid advice was direct from the school of hard knocks.
Does anyone know of a synth fill balaclava besides the BMW Cocoon? I'll admit, it's because the Pro 90 is RED!
I've had a hard time committing to the bivy when I feel like it has to be the simplest MYOG project around. My instinct tells me to make a silnylon/Pertex 360 bivy, and consider the BMW Vapr for SUL or a custom MLD for eVent options (even just for a eVent footbox). BUT, my instincts aren't founded in experience or bivy use outside my bomb-proof pre-eVent ID Crysallis for snow, so wtf do I know…. OK, seeing as I already committed the funds on a pre-ordered MLD Superlight, I'll cancel that and pickup the Nano in the Gear Swap for a few dollars more. MYOG really just keeps my hands busy, it's frankly more expensive in the early stages.
Thanks all! Can't wait to get out. I have a light n' fast scouting mission planned for a weekender in Seq Nat. I'm posting that in Trip Planning to see if I can enlist a partner.Oct 9, 2007 at 11:18 am #1404946
"Does anyone know of a synth fill balaclava besides the BMW Cocoon? I'll admit, it's because the Pro 90 is RED!"
NM – I got backlava and pull-over confused… I don't know if anyone makes just a synth-fill backlava…Oct 9, 2007 at 12:23 pm #1404950
The BMW Cocoon Pro 90 and 60 Balaclavas with Polarguard Delta are the only ones? I'm not finding anything other than down fill like the Down Works, so this may well be the case… jeez, red. Why red? Heh.Oct 9, 2007 at 6:46 pm #1404995
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
> The BMW Cocoon Pro 90 and 60 Balaclavas with Polarguard Delta are the only ones? jeez, red. Why red? Heh.
Because red is a nice colour inside a tarp/tent! It LOOKS warm.Oct 9, 2007 at 7:25 pm #1405002
Jeremy CleavelandBPL Member
@jeremy11Locale: Exploring San Juan talus
I don't think synthetic hoods are available commercially. Ray Jardine has a kit for a small hood. This is a hood I made from Minima Vest leftovers. It is 2 layers of 3 oz Primaloft, for 1.2 inches of loft. It weighs about 3 oz. I barely use the zipper, and recently added a drawcord for under the chin so it stays on without having to zip the zipper. It was fun to make it with only a single layer hood pattern. It is very helpful on cold nights with a quilt.
Edit: Bozeman Mountain Works makes a Polarguard Delta BalaclavaOct 9, 2007 at 9:46 pm #1405030
That looks great! Thanks for the tip on the Ray Jardine kit.Oct 10, 2007 at 1:02 pm #1405085
I made myself a balacalva this summer to complement my quilt. It's made from silk/prequilted primaloft/momentum, going from inside. It weights 45 g.
I can send you printable pattern, I digitalized it recently because I want to make another one with more insulation, what will require scaling the pattern up. Post your e-mail and I'll send it. (No instructions how to sew it yet, just the bare pattern.)Oct 10, 2007 at 3:46 pm #1405104
You are awesome!
d3pl3t3d AT yahoo DOT com
I'm just about to embark on a series of MYOG sewing projects: a quilt and a bivy. Getting my feat wet with the balaclava is perfect. Would you mind divulging your source for materials as well?
thanks so much,
-MichaelOct 10, 2007 at 4:39 pm #1405114
Adam RothermichBPL Member
@aroth87Locale: Missouri Ozarks
If you wouldn't mind sending me a copy of the pattern as well I would appreciate it. I have some leftovers from my Kinsman pullover that I think would be put to good use as a balaclava.
aroth87 at hotmail dot comOct 10, 2007 at 6:34 pm #1405124
Joe KusterBPL Member
I'm interested in the pattern as well. I've already got plenty of left over insulation from my other projects.
email@example.comOct 11, 2007 at 5:09 am #1405155
Nia SchmaldBPL Member
Sorry to pile on, but I's love it to. nschmald1 AT yahoo DOT com. Thank you.Oct 11, 2007 at 9:36 am #1405181
Ben RBPL Member
@snowfiend131Locale: Western PA
I'm sure the pile is too high now, but one more wouldn't hurt would it? snowfiend131 AT hotmail.com
please and thank you.Oct 11, 2007 at 10:12 am #1405184
@crazypeteLocale: Above the Divided Line
pmcdono a t udallas*eduOct 11, 2007 at 1:02 pm #1405203
Since I'm lazy to write so many e-mails, so you can download the pattern here:
IMPORTANT: The 1:1 pattern is divided into 6 pages with alignment marks, so it can be printed on any printer and then glued or taped together. The "paper size" is smaller than regular page, so it can be resized (if you don't want to resize it, be sure to select it in acrobat reader, default setting is "fit to page").
I suppose the original size will fit most, providing quite thin insulation (1 cm) is used. Here comes the equation I'm going to use when making warmer version:
Scaling [%] = ( Head_circumference + 2 * Pi * Insulation_thickness ) / 64 * 100
where all lengths are in centimeters.
I've used Momentum (from thru-hiker.com) for shell, prequilted Primaloft One (about 1cm thick) (also thru-hiker) as the insulation and thin, black dyed silk (pongé 5) from local art store. The result weights 45 g including the bungee cord.
Sewing instructions (short, but I hope better than none):
The pattern, with marked seam allowance, is transfered to both lining, shell and insulation. The main piece should be mirrored and can be made in one piece without sewing the rear seam.
Insulation is then attached to the lining in the seam allowance. Loose insulation could be quilted to the lining.
On both shell and lined insulation, the rectangular piece is sewn in and trimmed to the proper length in front (the pattern is created with some safety margin). Then, front seam is sewn.
Both layers are aligned together, inside out, and the bottom perimeter seam is sewn. Loops for the bungee cord are inserted into that seam in front and rear.
The balaclava is then turned right side out and seam along the face is sewn, the edge is trimmed to about 3 mm and seared. The exposed seam is then hidden under a cord sleeve, which is sewn around the edge of the face hole.
And here goes the result:
Oct 11, 2007 at 1:17 pm #1405208
Jim ColtenBPL Member
Nice! Great timing too, I was gonna start prototyping a pattern tonight. I'll try your's, looks like it'll save me some time!Oct 11, 2007 at 2:17 pm #1405215
I forgot to mention how helpful it was to use prequilted insulation. On such a small pattern with curved edges it would be hard to work with normal one (I remember how difficult it was to sew precisely the Climashield when I was making my quilt). But I'm sure it could be done as well, I'm going to take the challenge in near future.
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