Winter down bag decision

+1 to the "cake & icing" approach. Much safer to plan for that dew point on purpose, then have it show up where you don't want it – by accident.

In lieu of a synthetic bag topper, while a 50d downtek bag would be more $$, it would likely be more permeable, lighter, and ultimately last longer.

Like an EE Enigma.

Jim,
The BR Alpini 0 was another bag I was considering when I bought my Marmot earlier this year. It was the only 0 degree bag I found that had more fill than the Marmot (listed as 31 oz vs the marmot 30.7) I also read great reviews about the neck baffle and hood on the Alpini. What eventually did it for me was that it was the same price as the Lithium but the Lithium has DWR down. I figured all other things being equal the DWR couldn't hurt.

It's hard to say on the review of it not being warm enough. I've read that same review on every bag I've researched. I think people don't realize what goes into bag ratings and expect more than they should.

As to an Eddie Bauer bag with a warranty versus a top tier bag with a (theoretically) lesser warranty, I think there's a Tommy Boy quotation which is applicable. I like to buy stuff which doesn't break in the first place.

didnt one of the montane jackets you used in your last UL rain jacket test leak like a sieve with minimal use?

;)

I see that ZPacks has discontinued the use of WR Down. I do wonder if the hype has come back to roost.

Eric
I do think you should ditch that Moment come October and move into a "hot tent". You can then dry your bag and clothing every day and fend off those long dark nights in warmth and comfort while stoking the fire. I hunt late season too, and will never go back to a cold camp again. I would keep your current bags and invest in a warm, dry and spacious shelter.

Jesse, thanks for your response.

It’s hard to say on the review of it not being warm enough. I’ve read that same review on every bag I’ve researched. I think people don’t realize what goes into bag ratings and expect more than they should.

Yeah, some ratings are good for most people and then other ratings are wishful thinking for everyone. For example, I’ve slept below rating in my Western Mountaineering Summerlite and been fine (inside a bivy, wearing a down sweater), but I’m sure others might have been cold.

On the other hand, a friend loaned me a Coleman bag rated at 30 F. I wouldn’t trust it at 50F. That rating was very nearly outright fraud.

So it sounds like the Alpini’s rating is at least within reason. I can adjust with a bag liner, cloting, etc. if it’s reasonably close.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

It did indeed. EVent is not proven on the level of WM down bags, thus making the analogy not particularly accurate.

I remember watching (more than a year ago) some reviews of the ultra expensive, ultra high tech Patagonia DWR down jacket.

Despite the plasma super bonded silicone treatment, and despite having a claimed fp of 1000, after a jacket came back from a medium length trip, when the jacket was held up to the light and you could see the down, it was clumping together more than it would have normally. The person doing the review compared it to another jacket, that was not DWR, and this was more lofted, less clumpy, etc.

Gives one pause for thought for the above DWR treatment, and maybe DWR treatments in general to a lesser extent.

Perhaps the best, but almost certainly least durable, down DWR, is the simple wash in wax ones? I doubt this would do any damage to the down (wax being more similar to oil than fluorocarbon, silicone, etc) . That way, if it has negative effects on the down as regards clumping, etc, the coating will degrade faster. It's also the least toxic of the treatments (well, silicone itself is pretty safe/non toxic, but i think only Patagonia was using this for a treatment).

EB "made me an offer I couldn't refuse" so I got the Karakoram 0, StormDown (Down Tek) bag.

On top of the 40% off they gave me another 15% off if I got and EB credit card. I went for the deal which got me a very good down winter bag (850 fill & Pertex shell). I'll use the card once more for an EB purchase and cancel it.

Total-> $302.67 (includes 8.2% Nevada sales tax B/C they have a store in Las Vegas.)

So that's a pretty good deal from the original price of $549. that they have been advertising all year. The deal ends tonight at 10 PM Pacific Time.

And thanks for the DWR chart. I have one can of REVIVEX DWR left and then I'll get the Granger's best stuff. An REI employee told me about Grangers and said it was the best he had ever used. I'll use it on my GTX and eVent rain suits.

congratulations – enjoy it in good health.

i doubled down (a pun) on Eric's new bag.
we'll see how they look.

i will side to side this thing against my wm apache dryloft.

cheers,
v.

… but i was not clever enough to go for the new card.

We'll have to report back on our respective Karakoram bag experiences this winter. Can't wait to snuggle down in that bag on a frosty evening.

P.S. You actually may have been more clever than me by avoiding the EB credit card come-on.

got the new first ascent bag.
it is a foot too long. the foot box is vastly too wide. the neck seal is half a foot from where it should be. it does weigh a very sweet 2-11oz. the hood is too aggressively shaped to be of use in many other (more common) positions than fully zipped up. it is sewn using Much cunning trickery, with an impressive level of accuracy. it is wide and gracious and will keep newbies from feeling confined. it looks to be made by a people who know every possible thing about sewing, and a partial clue about sleeping bags.

set next to my WM Apache Dryloft, the Karkoram appears to be a product designed to be sold, and the trim and deadly sleek Apache, a tool to be used.
the Apache is narrow, trim, cramped a bit at full zip, and exactly what somebody who knows what they are doing, would want.

the Karkoram is vast and bloated, has great specs, and will appeal to those new to the game, and just under 7' tall.
i tossed it over me in bed (peter sleeps on a door), and the neck seal hits me in the lowest rib.
it is hella warm. give it that. the inner material is gossamer and has no mass, so it warms Fast. the loft feels generous and powerful.
even if it is close. it is not .. there.

fist ascent says it was designed by guides. maybe mountain guides aren't the prick i am, but this thing needs more work.

i'm sending it back and ordering a WM Antelope MF.

Maybe they mean tour guides. Like the bus variety.

Often wear their poofays with them in the bag … They also put their boots/liners in a plastic bag and put it in the footbox area along with any gas canisters

;)

Hey Eric, that dwr chart… was that test done while wearing a backpack?

I would have to dig out the test, but i believe so

The gist is that grangers (flurowhateveryoucallit) is considered the best aftermarket DWR around here anyways

Both dead bird and westcomb recommend it … And they both know a thing or two about rain jackets

;)

"Supposably" I'll get my EB Karakoram bag this Thursday.

I may be able to live with the extended foot length but NEVER with a too-low neck collar.

Like Peter I may send mine back and wait for WM to get Down Tek or Dri Down. It's not like I don't have a winter bag or two already.

Possibly there is a great disconnect between EB's Karakoram specs and what their Chinese manufacturers do.That I would not doubt for a second.

All of which brings me to finally state my long-suppressed cultural observation:

The difference between Chinese culture and Japanese culture when it comes to making things to spec is this:
1. The Chinese do not have nearly the dedication to quality that the Japanese do.
2. The Japanese are honorable in their business dealings, the Chinese – not so much. Over the decades US officials dealing with import safety regulations and copyright law have had FAR less problems with Japan than with China.

Basically it boils down to honor and how much it is valued in each society.
To me Chinese businessmen are the Ferengi of Earth.

"wait for WM to get Down Tek or Dri Down."
Since their down supplier, Allied Feather & Down, has its own treatment, Hyperdry, the chance that they will use Downtek or Dridown is minimal and I think you can wait a long time before WM will take that move.

"The gist is that grangers (flurowhateveryoucallit) is considered the best aftermarket DWR around here anyways"
While I read that article, I try to regurlarly use an after-market treatment and since Granger's is one of the only one available, I'll use that more any other treatment so I can say to not exspect miracles and after one day or a few days maximally it doesn't work anymore.

Do you throw the piece in the dryer?

After a certain point a fabric may not hold anymore DWR …

Which is why using your outdoor pieces for daily wear especially if you are carrying a bag in the city aint the best idea …

;)

"Do you throw the piece in the dryer?"
Of course

"Which is why using your outdoor pieces for daily wear especially if you are carrying a bag in the city aint the best idea …"
So I don't do that :-)

Well dont ya use dead bird anyways?

Their factory DWR is quite good but nothing last forever

And the article (test done by university of leeds) states explicitely that DWR doesnt last too long under abrasion

Ill repost the full article latter

;)

"Well dont ya use dead bird anyways?"
Yes

"And the article (test done by university of leeds) states explicitely that DWR doesnt last too long under abrasion"
Indeed. Only 50 miles as my memory serves me well.

Woubier,

I talked to a WM rep yesterday and he said that it appears Down Tek, Dri Down and other down DWR treatments wash off fairly quickly and that is why they do not use a down DWR yet.

He offered to make me a bag using some Polish down treated with a European DWR they were testing but I declined, not wanting to be a "test dummy".

So, unfortunately it appears the jury is STILL out on down DWR. I guess permanent down DWR may be almost in the realm of "di-lithium crystals" used to power Star Trek's Enterprise.

"He offered to make me a bag using some Polish down treated with a European DWR they were testing but I declined, not wanting to be a "test dummy"."
Well, it depends which treatment it is as Rab already has DWR-down, from Nikwax. And there is the DWR-down from Berghaus (source unknown).

BTW, do you know that the chemical plant behind Downtek is from my country ?

"…down DWR treatments wash off fairly quickly and that is why they do not use a down DWR yet."

Somehow that doesn't bother me as I can go 10 years without washing a bag… and they still don't stink after 10 years… I wash in camp and always wear a clean base layer in my bags… and the bags are always either in a bivy or a tent so they don't get exposed to much dirt either….

billy