Winter down bag decision

I would rather have the Big Agnes Pomer Hoit sl with drytek and pertex shell. Cheaper and it is not Eddie Bauer.

Eric, you've had a one track mind the last year with respect to down jackets and sleeping bags – if it's not Down Tek (or equivalent treatment) it's not worthy of consideration. But why? I think I'd have a better appreciation if you lived in perpetually damp climates, and went out for weeks on end, but reading your threads over time I don't see a rational need for such a jacket / bag when based in the South West and heading out for short duration trips.

I get the psychological value of using a bit more than you really need, and regardless of BPL's mantra I consider that wise for winter. Yet, what I see is a denigration of quality brands like Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends, and justification to go with a 3rd tier provider because Down Tek is a supposed savior. WM/FF may not be the fastest to respond to market changes, but neither have seen business value in shifting scarce resources into producing a Down Tek line of jackets or bags. The science just isn't there, according to WM. Maybe in time we'll see that other companies have stolen a march on them, but I don't consider Eddie Bauer a serious contender.

I use a WM Kodiak 0F and consider it well worth the MSRP. I also have a 50F synthetic quilt (EE Prodigy) that I can layer over the Kodiak if humidity and/or temperatures dictate that the Kodiak won't do it justice. But I've yet to encounter the need to use them together in the CO High Country.

Can you share empirical evidence that demonstrates without bias or any doubt that Down Tek (etc) is universally better than regular down?

i like the ability to shift down around. eb has everything at 40% off through 10PM PST on 8/12. use code "green" and the all in price including tax and shipping should be around $320.

A weird idea here. Why doesn't somebody invent a spiral baffle? If done right, just a few long spiral baffles would cover an entire sleeping bag. Of course, one baffle might be about ten feet long and therefore hard to fill.

–B.G.–

Hi Bob,

"Why doesn't somebody invent a spiral baffle?"

Knowing your sense of humor, I wasn't sure if you were kidding or not!

Montbell has used them for several years.

"I would rather have the Big Agnes Pomer Hoit sl with drytek and pertex shell. Cheaper and it is not Eddie Bauer."

Well, what you're paying for at EB is the warranty, which might actually be useful eventually on a sleeping bag (at least in theory). Might be even more useful on the sleeping bag with the pad built in. I certainly wouldn't want to spend $800 on a sleeping bag, but the warranty is comfort in case something goes awry.

I say in theory because I have loads of EB clothes, and I've never had to replace any of them, even after years of daily use. I've worn the same EB fleece I was gifted 9 years ago every single day for probably 6 months of the year, and it still looks pretty new. The stuff isn't even all that expensive if you catch a sale, which apparently happens every other week.

As to the OP, oh my! -20 degree synthetic bag? That must be huge! I have a 0 rated bag from my scouting years and it is at least 4lbs and occupies 20 liters when compressed. I can't even imagine a -20 bag.

Richard: Thanks for the heads up on the code! I might actually poke around their site and see if there's anything worth nabbing. About a year ago I bought one of their Rippac rain jackets for something crazy like 15 dollars. With EB, it's all about the sales!

Eric,
I understand the struggle of making this decision, especially when you're going off of online reviews and specs.

If you could, please follow up with your initial impressions once you get your bag. I'm especially curious about the length. I'd pay more attention to EB bags if I wasn't so gun-shy from the review that said it was crazy long.

The other thing that made me leary of the EB bags is the lack of overall specs. They want to sell high end gear but trying to see actual specs is nearly impossible. I went with the Marmot Lithium partially because it had close to the highest quantity of fill vs nearly every other 0 deg bag I found. EB doesn't list fill quantity or a number of other specs that might be helpful when comparison shopping.

while it was hard to track down, the bag has 27.6 oz. of fill and weighs-in at 2 lbs. 15 oz. for a long. while the dimensions don't match up exactly, it has slightly less down a weighs a couple of ounces more than my wm antelope at 28 oz. of fill and 2 lb 9 oz. overall weight for a long. If I didn’t have the antelope, even with the vertical baffles, I’d be picking one of these bags up. At around $320 including shipping and tax it may be the best deal you’ll see for a quality 0* sleeping bag. And if you don’t like it or have a problem you can always return it.

Thanks for the info. I'm curious where you found it. I looked and looked and couldn't find any reference.

Though, it does make me feel better about my Lithium at 30.7 oz of fill in a bag that weighs the exact same as the EB. Not that I need any justification at this point, I love my bag.

Like you say though Richard, that is a smoking price on a nice 0 deg bag. Even if I include my activejunky rebate and the 20% off coupon, my bag was still about $365 +tax.

i found it in two places – first on the whittaker mountaineering web site and got the same number when i hounded the girl on the customer service line at eb to find someone that knew what tehy were talking about. they only give one fill weight number, but i spoke to someone at whittaker's and while they couldn't give me a number, they said the long would have more fill than the regular.

Considering that these bags are likely made in Asia some place, I think both the fill weights and sizing specs may not be accurate.

Even down gear from FF and WM I have found to vary considerably from spec provided :(

If you are really picky about your bags, the best way is to order several different bags and weight them and measure them and lay them out on your living room floor to compare… return the rejects…

billy

I agree.

I'm sort of tempted by the 50th anniversary 20 degree bag. It's $240 with the 40% off. That's kind of hard to beat. Current bag is a Marmot Cloudbreak 30 (synthetic, albeit fairly light for being so). I could gain a few degrees warmth and keep pretty much the same weight. Hm.

The EB First Ascent stuff is pretty decent considering the price point and warranty. Quality is just as good as anybody else plus they offer tall sizes.

Ryan

Any time you’re plunking down multiple hundreds of dollars on a bag, you have to think twice.

Has anyone heard anything one way or the other about the Alpini zero degree down bag from Brooks Range? Sierra Trading Post has them in stock right now, and the price is pretty good, particularly since STP always has some kind of a discount going. I read one review where the person didn’t feel that the bag was really a zero degree bag. I seem to recall that they thought the rating was overly optimistic, and that one really couldn’t take the bag down that low.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving
Hikin Jim’s Blog

i wont comment on any particular bag

but i will say that unless they go out of business or refuse to honor their warranty (which i havent heard of yet) … EB is a no brainer riskless purchase

you can return it if it doesnt work for you

i bought a pair of merino socks with a limited time free promotional credit a few days ago … and the salesman gave me an additional voucher that also refunds the free credit if i wanted to return the socks … not many other companies would offer a refund of that promotional credit

along with OR, MEC and LL bean, they have the best warranty in the bizznizz

as to ratings .. all EB bags are supposed to be EN rated … ask for the lower limit, comfort limit and extreme limit ratings … those will be accurate for the "average" man/woman

;)

First off, if you can get that bag for $250, that's a steal considering EB's lifetime warranty.

But in regards to non-treated down/quality/etc:

I own about 4 garments from Feathered Friends (ironically not a sleeping bag). Quality is top notch. The stuff is built to last a long time and there's a reason why they're a favorite of alpine enthusiasts.

I own a Volant Jacket, and I bought it specifically to help deal with exposure to freezing rain. I had a long conversation on the phone with FF before I bought it, and to quote "We're based out of Seattle. We wouldn't really be in business if our stuff didn't work in the rain." Got a good laugh out of that. As long as you're not walking in a monsoon you'll be fine. I have personally worn my jacket in freezing rain for 1h+ exposure and performance didn't degrade at all. Their stuff isn't seam taped, but it's more or less waterproof.

Here's a quote from the FF website on why they don't use water resistant down:

http://featheredfriends.com/faq/#water

"Before jumping in, we have major questions, namely: does treatment negatively impact the longevity of the down? Does the treatment wear off with considerable use? How much water does it take to null any gain from treatment? We've been producing down gear in the rainy Pacific Northwest for 40+ years. We explore and utilize new technologies we find beneficial for you, so in the meantime, we will use the best fabrics on the market to help prevent water from even reaching the down insulation."

In regards to a sleeping bag, you're going to be using a seam-taped bivy sack either way, so water-resistant down doesn't really seem necessary. And any place that's cold enough to warrant a 0F sleeping bag is going to have pretty dry air. So humidity shouldn't be an issue. I'd mainly be concerned about snowfall melting on the bag which would be taken care of with a bivy sack + tent.

With that said, if you can get that Eddie Bauer bag for $240 that is a great deal, but I think this water-resistant down stuff is all hype. I'd much rather have a well-built bag with regular down, than a poorly made one with down-tek.

this is not a knock against FF or any other down manufacturer … but i always hear about the DWR thing about how yr down jacket/gear wont get wet

first … DWR will do nothing against internal moisture, if the dew point is inside the bag … this is the main concern of the loft degrading over a period of use … which is why mountaineers use overbags, and arctic explorers use VBLs … a bivy wont do anything to help

second … for jackets anyways, DWR degrades with use, and while you may be able to reapply it, its never going to be as good (and might not be that easy for down jackets) … if you wear your jacket all the time, especially around the city, the DWR will degrade to nothing in a short span … so essentially you should keep your "top notch" jackets (same with rain gear, synth, etc) only for outdoor use, and in the closet the rest of the time if you want to keep a good DWR

in short DWR should not be relied upon, especially if you use it alot

;)

From what I understand DWR is simply a coating that helps the water "bead up" so it will fall off the fabric easier. The actual fabric of the jacket is what keeps it waterproof. DWR is simply an extra layer of protection to prevent the fabric from "wetting out." At least, that's how I understand it.

In terms of durability – I wore a Neoshell jacket last year every day during fall-winter. Literally 5-6 months of every day use in NYC. I had an UL down jacket, and would layer the Neoshell over it. This combo kept me warm and dry throughout a very cold, wet winter. I think I washed it once (with Nikiwax Tech Wash), and the DWR coating held up fine. For a down jacket I would just use one of those spray-on treatments so I didn't have to wash it.

I admit to a "one track mind" regarding ONLY buying DWR treated down from now on. After getting a -20 synthetic bag very wet in just one night (at 15 F.) and having to use it for the next three nights AND experiencing that situation with one other synthetic 5 F. bag, both in well vented tents, I want DWR down

My WM Megalite is, of course, high end non-DWR treated down and works well in 3 season camping. But in using it with a duck down topper when deer hunting at 6,000 ft. in 15 F. weather in my single wall well vented Moment I again experienced a fair amont of dampness on and in the topper.

PLUS… reports on DWR down say it gives down a bit more loft and a lot more resistance to moisture absorption and much faster drying. Good enough for one who is tired of lugging heavy, bulk synthetic winter bags around. With fewer daylight hours and less sun drying time is at a premium in winter. That means a lot.

So there are my experiences and reasons.
*I'll look at the BA Polmer bag and once again at Sierra Trading Post. AND I'll see if EB will do the 40% off thing today.

*LL Bean has a 0 F. bag with Down Tek for $349. but it's 650 fill which means DUCK down to me.

*EB Karakoram bags and garments are 850 fill which can only mean goose down and likely from Canadian-raised geese. And I do lust after that EB bag for its design and warranty.

Finally, yep, it's big bucks for this retired guy on a fixed income, thus the agonizing over laying out the $$.

Thank you, guys, for the info and advice. I shall report back on whatever I do buy. Hopefully it will be a field test report with photos.

UPDATE: The BA Polmer has a "half pad" built in. I don't like that setup despite the excellent quality.

Just maybe a thin synthetic, removable bag "topper" is an answer to collecting body and tent condensation and drying it out quickly.

I dunno, but I do know my duck down topper did collect most of the condensation and I could dry it separately and fairly fast, as in 2 hours in the AM on days when I began my hunt near camp.

Out of curiosity what was the situation where your bag got soaked on a 15F night?

From what I understand DWR is simply a coating that helps the water "bead up" so it will fall off the fabric easier. The actual fabric of the jacket is what keeps it waterproof. DWR is simply an extra layer of protection to prevent the fabric from "wetting out." At least, that's how I understand it.

In terms of durability – I wore a Neoshell jacket last year every day during fall-winter. Literally 5-6 months of every day use in NYC. I had an UL down jacket, and would layer the Neoshell over it. This combo kept me warm and dry throughout a very cold, wet winter. I think I washed it once (with Nikiwax Tech Wash), and the DWR coating held up fine. For a down jacket I would just use one of those spray-on treatments so I didn't have to wash it

first of all … unless its one of those known waterproof fabrics like goretex, event, etc … it aint "waterproof"

secondly … once a DWR wears out even on those waterproof fabrics, the water wont roll of anymore, and while the jacket may stay waterproof, the body moisture cant pass outwards anymore … it aint "breathable" anymore .. see why it matters below

thirdly … ive used even dead birds daily, which are considered to have one of the best DWRs in the business, and the DWR will wear out within a year or so of daily use … if you are going to use it then use grangers which have been tested to be the longest lasting reproofer

fourthly … if you wear your down jacket daily, especially the high fill power ones you should wash it more often … the body vapours and oils will degrade the loftiness of the down over time … and every time you wash it it degrades the down abit

as i said before … its not so much external moisture you need to worry about, but internal one generated from you … DWR does nothing to prevent this

from Gordon G. Giesbrecht, U of Manitoba, recognized cold weather conditions experts that trains SAR teams including our local one

http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/kinrec/hlhpri/media/Cold_Weather_Clothing.pdf

;)

Just maybe a thin synthetic, removable bag "topper" is an answer to collecting body and tent condensation and drying it out quickly.

this is what synthetics overbags are for … some BPL members with their own blogs have had good success with this

now DWR down may help with condensations and body vapor … but only time will tell

personally ive had good results with using a synthetic jacket over a down sweater in high humidity enviroments

;)

My limited experience with the various treated downs has been mixed. I'm not convinced it will prove the silver bullet many companies claim, especially as no one is in a position to answer the durability question.

As to an Eddie Bauer bag with a warranty versus a top tier bag with a (theoretically) lesser warranty, I think there's a Tommy Boy quotation which is applicable. I like to buy stuff which doesn't break in the first place.