Can I beat the MB frost line parka ?

"Dan, what conditions are you in where the Frost line is a "light jacket"? "

I agree this jacket would be overkill for most mobile use, even in winter. I would use this jacket for stationary use during the colder 6 months of the year. In that context, it's a "light" jacket both in weight and function. For seriously cold conditions (lows < 10F), such as a Colorado 14'er summit in February, or relaxing in camp at Minnesota's Boundary Waters in January, I'd want more down or other warm layers.

Montbell's Permafrost jacket provides quite a bit more down (9oz vs 6.7oz) for 4oz more in total weight. This jacket would be suitable for 90% of stationary winter conditions (lows > -10F). It's unfortunate that the price tag goes up so much ($329 vs $219) for those extra 2.3oz of fill.

To be clear, I don't own or use either of these jackets so my opinions are based on the specs. I have owned a lot of down jackets though including quite a few Montbell products (Ex-light, UL Down Parka, Alpine Light Parka).

Hi JP,

I find the Permafrost good to about 5F to 0F depending
on what I have on underneath it.

Dan,
It is indeed unfortunate that the price difference is so great between those two jackets. The Frost line definitely has a ton of room for layering unlike the EX light anorak that I own. I wonder how much of a difference a few more ounces of down makes??

Jimmy, I have been using Montbell products for 9 years now and I have never had a single complaint about any of them. They are great products at a great price and they have taken abuse all the places in the world I have taken them (Mostly Southeast Asia and the Southwestern USA) and in a ton of conditions. I'd say half the backpacking/mountaineering clothes in my closet are Montbell. I only have a few small day packs of theirs as they are far from being light. If you haven't already signed up for the Montbell club you should. You get 10% back on every purchase. This has allowed me to make the more expensive purchases from Montbell like a hardshell and a sleeping bag.

http://montbell.us/club/

Jakuchu San, I did not know this about Montbell I just assumed they sold the same products and changed the sizing on them. Do you live near the Ibuki mountains? I miss Japan, it had some of the most fantastic mountains I have ever seen in my life. I spent every other weekend in the mountains during the winter in Nagano and Niigata prefectures when I lived there. If you ever need/want something from Montbell in the USA I would be happy to help!

Heath, thanks for the tip on the MB club.

jimmyb

Heath – thanks for the offer. Much appreciated. I think for now I'm going to layer down puffy and synth. Heavy, but need to buy a new ice axe and some other gear more. I mean, it's nice to go lightest etc. But for me it's also about making due with the things that you have. Even if I can, I don't want to have a separate featherlight thing for every separate scenario. Unless of course there is a more solid need for it. In the future I might buy a Mirage or Frost Line like puffy. Right now I have decided I'm good.

The mountains here are great, love European Alps too – but I'm really curious about the States.

>Too bad Backcountry.com is out of medium or I'd be ordering with the 20% off coupon.

Dan, true, and the Mirage is currently top of my list. But 8 denier more means 100% greater yarn weight/strength, and the 40g extra down would be quite nice too. Plus being tall I like the idea of a full 30" back length. Granted that would make it a 500g rather than 400g jacket but I would happily pay that price for the extra warmth and durability.

Thank you for this thread – it’s been very helpful in learning about good down jacket options. Up to now I’ve only used synthetic (older PL1 Patagonia DAS and Montbell Thermawrap Parka).

@Dan you mentioned the Patagonia Fitz Roy Parka – 6.7-7 oz fill weight

*Edited to correct Fitz Roy weight*

EJ,

I think that spec you got for the Fitz Roy is for the "jacket", not the "parka". The Parka seems to have between 183 – 200g of fill (sources vary, but see link below). That's 6.4-7.0oz. So the total weight (19.2oz) and fill weight are both very comparable but the MSRP is double ($449). At an equal price I'd take the Patagonia but the Montbell is a killer value. Note the 2014 Fitz Roy Parka is a totally new and way better design. There was one on eBay for $265 Buy It Now last month, but the seller wouldn't ship to Canada.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=93869

Regarding the Mirage, I'm not quite sure what comments of mine you're referring to, but I prefer 30D shell fabrics over 7D in this application. I like the 900FP and 7D inner fabric of the Mirage, but I like the 30D face fabric and longer cut of the Frost Line. At an equal price it would be a a tough call since 6oz is a lot, but at $90 cheaper the Frost Line is an easy pick. If any of the online stores currently running 20% off sales had a medium in stock I'd be buying.

With that said, the Mirage vs Frost Line debate depends a lot on intended use. If I was winter camping and needed something warm to toss on in the evenings in a cold forest campsite I'd prefer the Mirage. However, I would like a winter jacket that I can also use for mountaineering applications so a bit more durability is preferred.

I like how Montbell is using good zippers on both jackets.

LOL it's amazing how many Patagonia chat/phone reps you have to question to get a right answer. I said Parka, but he was probably looking at the jacket specs.

Dan, If price were equal, why do you prefer the Fitz Roy over the Frost Line?

I tried a Fitz Roy on from the Patagonia Outlet I think about two years ago and thought it was heavy for the warmth, but sounds like this is a new design.

This thread has been immensely helpful in understanding tradeoffs and temperature range of these jackets. Thanks again.

Yeah the old Fitz Roy Parka is way different. I don't think it's box baffled, and it's over-featured.

Functionally the Frost Line and Fitz Roy Parka are darn similar, so at the same price I'd take the Fitz Roy because:
1) Patagonia stuff tends to fit better, less boxy
2) Patagonia supports good causes (ie. 1% for the planet, common threads).
3) I like how it looks better.

I wonder how much fill the 2014 Fitz Roy has. The range is nice but why not publish it up front.
Really wish manufacturers would write that up as happily as they write it's 800 or 900FP down.

I tried the Fitz Roy once before this thread and have to say it felt very warm. That baffle behind the zipper and in your neck really feel good.
For me Patagonia fits more boxy than anything, but I guess we can't compare Montbell US and JP products one on one so well.

E J,

I have a Atom SV that I can layer over my Montbell Alpine Light. It's a bit tight, and frankly I ultimately want to go a bit warmer too.
I run very warm when on the move (cause I often run or climb fast), but even more cold when stopping.
I like the layering approach, but when climbing I like the less faff approach of one fat warm piece when waiting/belaying/resting on a precarious edge of rock or ice.

Last time I checked with Patagonia, the rep told me the fill weight is 200 g in the parka. I think the confusion is the fill weight between the jacket and the parka. It would be a lot easier if they just posted the full specs on the website.

I have often wondered why certain specifics like fill weights are left out of MFG's specifications and the only conclusion I come to is they really don't want to promote any more comparison shopping than necessary. I believe many MFG's are hoping folks fall in love with the colors, styles, features ect. and are willing to leave some important comparisons to question. IMO BPLers are much more analytical about their purchases, and wisely so. That is another reason I am happy to buy from MB as they fully disclose their specs. It certainly makes it easier to estimate the performance of items in their line up.

jimmyb

For the past few months I have been trying to figure out which hooded down jacket to buy for late fall-winter-early spring use. For the past few years I have been using a Montbell UL down parka that I got used, and it has done well, but with colder temps I need to have a lot of layers. So I wanted not try and reduce bulk and weight of layers and add warmth too, and wanted to buy new (the used one I bought was/is a bit worn out and less loft).

Just before seeing this thread I finally pulled the trigger on a Montbell Alpine light parka. It's about 100g heavier than my MB UL parka at around 400g for size large, but has much more down and is 20D fabric. This makes it both warmer and more durable–so in addition to eliminating 1 or maybe even 2 of my cold weather layers, it can handle more abuse and wear-n-tear.

I thought about the Mirage, but in the end I thought it would probably be too warm for my needs, plus expensive, and the 7D fabric I would feel paranoid about and would want to baby it rather than have peace of mind and just wear it "normal" (yet of course common sense careful).

I thought about the Frost Line, but it's much heavier than the Alpine light, and while that means it would be much warmer and slightly more durable, we're back to it being probably too warm for my needs. If I was toasty warm at around -10C sitting around camp with my UL parka with a wind break over it plus a light synth vest, synth fleece, and Merino wool base layer, I am guessing that I will be just as toasty or maybe warmer with the Alpine light in place of the UL parka and minus either the vest or fleece and minus the windbreaker. And it's 20 bucks more, not that much, but still.

The Ex Light anorak I also considered, it would not be warm enough (2.2oz vs. 4.3oz down), plus 7D fabric again–though I get that it's intended to be used as a mid layer. Not to mention a bit more expensive too.

The Frost Smoke parka has less down yet weighs more, but has 30D outer fabric. Same price as Alpine light, but I'd rather have more down, and 20D I think is a good compromise of light but still pretty durable.

I wish that Montbell would let you build your own damn down jacket. I'd like a hooded anorak with 5oz 800 fill down, 30D outer shell, 10D lining, and kangaroo pocket. GET ON THIS MONTBELL, and send me three for free because it was my idea first. You can call it the Woods Whisperer. You know. Cuz that other guy named Cesar. Only he… nevermind.

EDIT – I too took advantage of the 20% off from Backcountry. 160 bucks plus free shipping for a great down jacket is not too shabby!

Just Called Patagonia and their rep said size MED has 150g/5.2oz

A GooseFeet Down Parka will blow away the MB Frost Line Parka.

Here's one with 7.1 ounces of down that weighs 12.4 ounces.
Can't beat the price for what you get either.

http://www.guthookhikes.com/2012/01/guthooks-goosefeet-parka.html

"A GooseFeet Down Parka will blow away the MB Frost Line Parka."

Do you know how much Ben charges for something similar?

Ryan

I ahd a Gooses Feet Parka for along while, I really liked it but prefered the MiragePermafrost.

"Just Called Patagonia and their rep said size MED has 150g/5.2oz"

Appreciated.

So far we have 150, 183 and 200 grams.

At least it is clear that it isn't clear how much down is in there, if we take into account the other calls made for down weight..

Was that to be for the parka?

In need of a backcountry ski-tour lounging in camp parka, I picked up a size large.

I wear size medium in all Patagonia men's wear (5'10" 165lbs.), but ordered a size up. Fits loosely over base and mid layers just as I wanted but the hood is huge, just as you need for a helmet. Collar is very tall covering to my mouth, with nice soft vabric over the chin. The hood does cinch down the sides nicely (pictured) and by tensioning the vertical Velcro strap in the rear of the hood you can cover your eyes or not with the visor area of the hood. Great for cold weather quilt use.

Size large is 597g and 20g stuff sack on my scale.

Pleased, but for purely backcountry use I would rather pony up for the mirage.

Edit to add: all the vertical seams ( torso, under arm and connecting sleeve to vest body) are sown-through construction. The fabric caught in the seam is thicker feeling like down might be trapped in there. Doesn't affect my overall happiness, but worth noting in comparison to a Fitzroy. same seam design I wonder?

Also the zippered side hand pockets are sown to 'Patagonia' quality standard with a hidden appearance when shut.

The front main zipper is beefy. Maybe a size 7. Very glad after repeated Patagonia small zipper failure. Sw USA conditions (caffin save your maintenance snark;)

Looks very nice. Is there a draft collar in the neck and behind the zipper?

Kevin,

We're a very similar size (I'm 5'11, 165 lbs). Can you comment on sleeve length for the Frost Line? From the specs the torso looks decently long, hopefully the sleeves are too.

Do you reckon I'd be fine with a medium if I don't want to layer over anything more than a 200wt fleece?

Thanks for the info on the jacket. My guess is all the seams on the Patagonia Fitz Roy are box baffled. There is a video somewhere the construction of the Encapsil Belay Parka, where I think all seams were baffled, and I think the Fitz Roy is based on this design but with more affordable fabrics and fill.

Any comparable jacket by Nunatak or Feathered Friends beats MB in a combination of fill quality, fill quantity, shell material, and workmanship all at better weights. You just have to brace yourself for the cost . . . . That said, I scored an amazing Nunatak Skaha full zip jacket here on the Gear Swap Forum. There are several nice FF jackets on Ebay right now. So deals on better jackets can be had. A FF Helios hooded parka weighs in at 18oz with 7.8oz of 850+ fill. The shell is Pertex Endurance LT that offers some real performance. The Nunatak Kobuk wights in at 18oz, with 9oz of 800 fill, with several shell options.

Just keep in mind that smaller makers are still working with basically the same materials as everyone else. So differences in weight are almost entirely attributable to tradeoffs in durability or features. This can be good or bad depending on personal preference.

The Nunatak Kobuk does indeed have 9oz of down (medium) in an 18oz jacket. That's about 2.3oz more fill yet with a 1.5oz lighter total weight. Thus the rest of the jacket weights 9oz, while an empty Frost Line would weigh about 13oz. Why the substantial 4oz difference?

1) The Kobuk uses less durable 0.8oz Pertex Quantum shell fabrics
2) The Kobuk lacks a hood
3) The Kobuk lacks adjustable wrist openings

The FF Helios packs an extra oz of down into a 1oz lighter total package. It appears to accomplish this via a shorter torso length (major con for a parka), non-adjustable waist, non-adjustable wrists and sewn-thru construction.