winter in NY

Sounds good. Camp right there at Woodland Valley. I'll join you.

@Bob

We MTB on Wednesday or Thursday nights around 8:30 at Graham Hills in P'ville. Social pace, go for about an hour, lights required. The next two weekends I've got cub scouting activities going on, but the weekend of the 25-26th I'm doing the Orienteering A Meet at Mountain Lakes Park in North Salem. Don't know if you're a runner, but even if not, it's a new map in an area not previously open to orienteering, so should be fantastic. The weekend after that the Mrs. is running the marathon, but then my calendar opens up. Look forward to getting together for some hikes.

Christian, let's stay in contact as the calendars clear! The orienteering sounds cool – I do a little trail running with my pooch. Longest I have done is 13 mi, but typically 5-7 mi. I'm not so fast, but pretty steady for a senior citizen, lol! (I'm 58, so not technically sr but don't tell the ticket takers at the movie theater!)

Did you know about the MST hike (in PA) coming up Nov 13-16? Link here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=94849

I'm doing that one, for sure!

Hey Bob and Christian,

I'm also in the area (live in yonkers, work in bedford). I'm a more experienced trail runner than backpacker, but am always looking for local folks to do either.

Pete

Pete, good to hear from you – more guys in our neck of the woods.

I'm getting to know Harriman quite well and it's a great place to hone backpacking skills… AFTER the hordes of leaf-peeping city folk have had their fill. Even mid-week this time of year it can get quite crowded. And weekends? Fuggedaboudit!

If you are able to do mid-week backpacks after the first of Nov let me know. My wife has plans for us the weekend of the Marathon.

How does Jan 23 (Fri) thru 25 look for you guys?

Should be good and snowy by then.

January 23-25 should be ok for me. I would only have to take off work Friday the 23. Pencil me in for that. I'm gonna mark it in my calendars now.

Thanks, Joe. I've got a little section started in my notebook.

That oughta work. Put it in the calendar.

Super!

I was playing around with Caltopo some more today and this is the map as close as I can guesstimate it for now: http://caltopo.com/map?id=143F

Looks as if the road walk on Rt 47 is somewhat longer than I mentioned previously because of a private property line, approx 1.1 mi.

Here is an online report regarding the exact route, albeit a summer trail run/hike: http://tonyoutthere.blogspot.com/2012/08/catskills-slide-mountain-loop.html

I am thinking of doing a reconnaissance hike (overnight) in late October before the snow falls if anyone is interested in that.

I would go with you, but I'm doing the west rim trail this Thursday to Saturday. Then in November I'd like to take my son out for a night, probably Deleware water gap to Sunfish pond or Harriman. So my next time out would be January. .This trip!

I'm out for October – until my wife runs the marathon, that takes priority.

One quick question:

What footwear/traction have you found most useful in the Catskills? I usually do leather boots with a full gaiter for winter day hikes, but a bit concerned that'll freeze overnight. Thinking about going with VBL/wool socks/Saucony trainer/Forty Below Light Energy TR overshoes. And complement that with snowshoes and either microspikes or a full hiking crampon.

Christian,

Leather boots/gaiters are fine using a thin liner sock (Wigwam Coolmax), VBL, and wool sock (such as Thorlo). A gaiter that completely covers the boot laces is best. This keeps the boot and wool sock combo dry, preserving their insulation value.

I have been giving serious consideration to the trail runner/overboot system recently. However, when I looked at the complete system it made me decide, for the time being, to stick with my Vasque Snowblime boots with the above-mentioned sock system. There is a lot to be said for simplicity in the winter when putting on boots in the morning can be a major chore.

For super cold, I might decide to revert to my old heavy standby, Scarpa Inverno plastic boots. The completely rigid boots are actually quite efficient for walking on ice and snow, and mine are very comfortable.

Microspikes and snowshoes will suffice for the Catskills. There are a couple of spots where an ice axe can come in handy, but 1 axe for the group is plenty.

Doing the loop Sunday-Monday.

Weather (Rain, grrr) coming Monday night and lasting for about 3 days, so it's time to go! Up there, snow is coming soon.

Anyone not otherwise engaged would be welcome to join. Sunday night possibly down to low 20's per most recent update at mountain-forecast.com

Bob, hope you had a great trip!

Hi, Christian:

I had a nice trip and discovered a couple of new things and also refreshed my memory on quite a few old things. Also made me question the wisdom of taking my dog on this hike.

Although I had not done WCS in about 9 years – the last time was a trail run/jog/hike – I have done it numerous times in the past (since 1987) as a winter day hike and a few times as an overnighter, plus some summer and fall trips sprinkled in there. What I had forgotten over time is how many nasty little scrambling sections there are and how much more difficult they become in winter. Fortunately on this hike I brought along a 40-foot section of 6mm climbing cord to belay my poor pooch via his backpack harness, and I honestly don't think we could have completed the hike without it. I wasn't counting, but I belayed him at least 10 times and had to hoist or boost him quite a few times as well. It was a huge relief to arrive at the top of Slide with no injuries to Cyrus. A very nice couple named Steve and Victoria gave him some well-deserved salami and ham. The temperature at the top was 27F and there were passing sleet showers all day above 3000 ft.

From Slide down to Rt 47 is not difficult. A couple of small lip-type drops that are easily negotiated. The vast majority of day hikers going to Slide do it from the Rt 47 parking area. We got a late start (10:15am) so we camped not far off the trail near Rt 47.

One of the unknowns I was able to learn is that the road walk on Rt 47 to the forest road up toward Giant Ledge is only 1.05 mi. We walked it in 22 minutes at an easy pace, and that included a stop to adjust layers and for Cyrus to do a poop. There is a clear sign that I had never noticed before that marks the public easement through the private Winnisook Club property.

The forest road walk to the Phoenicia East/Giant junction is easy and pleasant. I did not take the side trip to Giant Ledge because I have done it before many times, but it is an easy .75 mi hike leading to some of the best views in the Catskills. The 2.75 mi hike on Phoenicia East to Woodland Valley is all fairly easy downhill, with the exception of one interesting section I call Stairway to Heaven.

BOTTOM LINE, and Your Opinions

For those familiar with Andrew Skurka's "Fun Classification" system, the route as presently proposed is brimming with Type 3 potential. (Read this: http://www.summitpost.org/wittenberg-cornell-slide-trail-from-the/164512) Although I proposed it, I think the better part of discretion would be to look at other options that offer mostly Type 1 with a little Type 2 while avoiding epic efforts and possible injuries. Depending on how the winter develops, we might switch venues to the Blackhead Range or even (in consultation with Joe A) something in Harriman. Snow and ice conditions and short daylight hours really do dictate how far one can hike in the winter.

So, for those who have already expressed interest, what are your opinions? I really want to keep alive Stephen M's string of successes with BPL activities and I think that scaling it back a bit would be a wise move.

Anyway, some photos from the hike…

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On the way up to Wittenberg, only the beech trees had leaves remaining on them.

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Not far above 3500 ft, sleet and snow accumulation has begun.

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Of the three summits, Wittenberg has the most expansive views.

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From Wittenberg, Ashokan Reservoir with (I think) Lone Peak under a dark cloud, with sleet showers passing.

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Icy branches nearing the summit of Slide

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The mightily wished-for easement off Rt 47/Winnisook

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"Stairway to Heaven" on the Phoenicia East trail. That thing took an enormous amount of effort to assemble.

Sounds like a nice trip Bob. I spent the weekend camping at Croton Point with the Cub Scouts – my son and I squeezed into our Nammatj 2 and did it backpacking (not so light)-style, but some of the packs patrol-camped with a vigor that would impress the United States Army Quartermaster Corps! Not exactly the wilderness, but if one wants to trade howling coyotes for 8-year old boys singing songs from Frozen…

I'll be honest – for me, this trip is going to be about trying out my new winter packing list in hopefully genuinely cold conditions and doing something a bit more "serious" than the usual overnights with my kids, so I'm pretty easy as to what we do. I do think camping at elevation and exposed to a bit of wind would be fun if weather permits.

Out and back to the top of Slide from Rt. 47 is obviously quite easy – nice trail and less elevation gain, but it hardly compares to your original suggestion. I'd still be eager to do that if we're promised sub-zero night time conditions. If doing the loop, I think clockwise is still the better direction — I'd rather climb the east side of Wittenberg-Cornell-Slide than descend it.

I'm open to Blackhead Range too. Harriman as well, but I'll pray for cold weather then!

I'd also prefer a fairly easy trip where we:

* hike enough to have "backpacked", but even people like me with a little too much *ahem* "natural insulation/energy storage" can do it without epic physical exertion :)

* see a scenic area

* get a chance to "enjoy" being out in some of the coldest weather and most snow possible

* Maybe we could even have a winter skills and gear sharing session in camp?

* Hopefully we can have a campfire? *lip quivers*

If you guys ever get the feeling that someone is stalking this thread, well it's me. I lived up in Clayton, NY for five years and consider NY to be my second home. One of the prettiest places I've ever lived.

Can't wait to read the trip report.

We saw the tracks in the snow when we had to backtrack and wondered who that was!

Hi, Ian – Stalkers welcome!

Nice to have someone living in the PNW who has a lot of winter experience in NY and understands that despite our comparatively humble elevations NY really does have some whupp-ass weather and terrain.

Christian and Andy – Thanks for the input and I'm looking forward to hearing from Joe, Stephen, Steve and Pete, and anyone else with insights to offer. I've participated in and co-led/led many multi-day trips to the Whites and Daks and a couple to Baxter, but only with long-time friends whose winter skills and fitness levels were well known. We've done "death marches" of 22 mi at -25F, and I don't think that's what we're after here.

This is a far different situation where we want the emphasis to be on fun and camaraderie – with folks with different skills and fitness levels – and need to calibrate the route and distance accordingly. The good thing about the Blackhead Range is that it offers some bail-out options, and Harriman offers some easier but great loops in case we get huge snowfall this year. Perhaps going farther north to the Daks will be necessary if winter down-state is too mild. Greatly complicating the planning process is the fact that we have no idea what kind of weather we'll have this winter leading up to late January, nor what kind of weather to expect during the trip. Some years there is a significant "January thaw" to contend with. There were a few years when there was very little snow the whole winter.

I am just making suggestions and want to emphasize that this is my first effort to help plan/organize a BPL group event and therefore consider myself a co-co-co-co-leader with all of you guys. Certainly, any suggestions about how to ensure it is enjoyable and successful are welcome!

In the interim, if any of you NY/Westchester guys want to do some local stuff when we start getting some snow cover, just give me a shout – I'm going to be doing it anyway.

Bob,

I read/watched this report because it did a nice job of scaffolding learning winter camping skills:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86545

Pete, thanks for that link!

Since you're nearby, I would be very happy to help you fast-track your winter camping skills (and snowshoeing, too, if you need/want). It's nice that you can go a very short distance into Harriman and get a real winter experience, with a short hike back to "civilization" if necessary.

For doing really "committing" overnight winter trips, learning first to winter camp is a necessity… you have to learn to *live* in the snow and cold – eat, sleep, recover – before engaging in a multi-day trip. It is one thing to come back to a warm hut at the end of the day and quite another to find a place to camp, stomp out a tent platform and kitchen, erect a shelter and prepare dinner at -20F. Whole 'nuther skill set for sure.

In addition to our planned trip, if folks have an interest in winter camping overnights, I think it'd be fun to do that in Westchester/Putnam/Rockland.

One of the things I am trying to determine this year is just how low I can push my combination of WM Flight jacket and pants and WM Summerlite bag, especially using the Summerlite as a quilt, and what nighttime footwear solution have have to employ for that option, and local trips make that easier. (My winter/mountaineering bag is -20d so great in the Whites and Sweden, bad in Westchester.)

In addition to Harriman, on our side of the river, California Hill State Forest and Ninham Mountain State Forest in Putnam County offer sanctioned backcountry camping. I've never seen anyone else at California Hill and Ninham is empty after MTB season winds down. Neither offer the views or open space of Harriman, but they are easy to get to and allow camping anywhere that follows the state DEC regulations. Both allow hunting so have to take that into account when planning.

Ward Pound Ridge in Westchester also offers backcountry camping, but really only at lean-to 6 and it isn't cheap.

If folks want to talk about stealth camping options (which I think is only defensible with snow cover and strict LNT) in Westchester, we can do that via PM.

Maybe we should plan to go on a quick overnight as soon as the nightime temps drop below 20d. West Mountain shelter is nice and exposed!

I love how California Hills is listed as "a rugged forest for hunters and explorers"

I don't quite have the gear (yet) for real winter camping, but would love to get there (or figure out a way to extend my current gear)