Kickstarter Project: Learn to Packraft

[John S.]

From Kickfrauder page…

Creator Backpacking Light on March 13
Hi Daniel et al., we are actively working on the project. We are changing so much of the episode instruction at this point that finalizing subsequent episodes is challenging, I order to ensure a cohesive, integrated instructional program! Thanks for your patience.

[Roger Caffin]

Dave

Last warning.
Update your email address in your personal details please. The one listed bounces.

Yours
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

[Ron D]

After reading this thread I have to agree with Nick about unrealistic expectations for most Kickstarter campaigns. Did anyone actually think out the likelihood of getting what was promised for a total of $35K in funding? Twenty instructional modules in just one instruction level and there are three different instruction levels? For 35K??? They were going to plan out the entire multi-level instruction program, script each module, assemble a crew and gear and then professionally film it, edit it and overlay instructional information for a grand total of $35K??? Did you expect everyone to work for free as a volunteer? Did you think all of the equipment and film gear would be free? Kickstarter is an investment and Ryan may have over promised but every investor has a responsibility to think through the project before giving up his money.

[Michael Fisher]

This thread is not about whether $35,000 is enough to fund the project. If you read the Kickstarter page, Ryan proposed how he would pull it off with a limited budget. In the few updates he has given, there has been no mention of budget limitations or any of the foreseen risks occurring. In a response to me via Kickstarter (which I reposted to the forum), he said he had filmed all of the footage in 2013. Now, I don't know much about movie production, but it seems to me that if he has all the footage it's just a matter of time. However, looking at his Facebook page, it looks like he's spending all of his time out playing rather than working on this project, except for that one post in November 2014.

No, this thread is about unfilled commitments and accountability. A simple "I screwed up, and here's how" or "I've been delayed because ___ but I'm going to ___" message would go a long way. For an Eagle Scout, I would expect better character.

Oh, and if you want to talk numbers, I've backed another project that received less than $14K in funding, was far lengthier and more technically challenging to carry out than this Packrafting series, and is set to be complete (DVD mailed) within a year of being funded rather than the nearly 2.5 years that have elapsed on Ryan's project without progress.

[Dave T]

"Ryan may have over promised but every investor has a responsibility to think through the project before giving up his money."

Yes, it's YOUR fault for believing the promises, taken on good faith. (To the tune of $35,000.)

[Nick Gatel]

Yes, I am probably the most vocal critic of Kickstarter on BPL. It has nothing to do with BPL.

I did not donate anything to the Pack-rafting project.

I don't know RJ. I really have no opinion about him positive or negative. He has contributed some great writing about backpacking over the years. He has also written some things that I strongly disagree with. For the most part he created this website. Whether or not this website is the big profit-maker some seem to think it is debatable. I suspect it makes little or no money. But this isn't the issue.

The RJ bashing on this thread is the most disgusting thing I have read in all my years on BPL. Perhaps he didn't meet his Kickstarter obligations, and he may or may not in the future. It doesn't concern me personally as I have no vested interest in it.

But the personal attacks have gone way too far. I think most of the negative commenters in this thread should be ashamed of themselves. Of course they will probably criticize me for posting this — so be it.

Please, be civil.

[Michael L]

I am disappointed in you. The most disgusting thing you have read on BPL? Really? I have read much worse over the years. MUCH.

Ryan deserves every bit of criticism he gets. It hasn't started to get personal. He LIED. He made promises and failed to deliver. Once or twice I could chalk up to inexperience or mistakes, but he has created a pattern. He has made excuses for his failures in the past. he doesn't even try that any more. Now he sends in his hatchet man Roger to clean up the complaints.

Do you want to review? He promised multiple things to life members. He failed to deliver. the most insulting thing to me was his promise of input in the strategic planning. The strategic planning he changed and tried to charge us to attend. We are all aware of his failures. The packrafting grift job is the latest of many rip offs. I'm sorry if you consider attacks on Ryan Jordan as disgusting. I don't. The man lied, cheated, and stole from his long time customer base. I have zero sympathy for such a man.

[Ron D]

Michael Fisher

I have some sympathy with you since you did make an donation to the project. Most of the others here are just the anti-Ryan troll crowd. I'm a supporter of Ryan, he is responsible for this website and its success and it's done far more for my outdoor life than the thousands I've spent on gear. The troll crowd will scream that he has nothing to do with the website, but the obvious fact is that if he disappears the website does too, if the anti-Ryan trolls disappear nobody notices.

My impression is that you viewed this as an advanced payment on a defined product. Kickstarter isn't really like that. It's mostly interesting developmental stuff funded on a shoestring and run by people with lots of enthusiasm and limited ability to make it into a reality. I view the contributors as just helping out with something that interests them, if something concrete comes out I consider it a bonus. I don't mean that comment as a put down, I occasionally donate to kickstarter projects (including this one for $10) but I keep my expectations low. I don't know the statistics but I suspect the majority of kickstarter projects don't fully deliver. That's not unexpected, most new small business also fail. Ryan's goal of producing 65 modules of instruction, a documentary film and online instruction material was marginal at best. Ryan also planned to use all the toys like aerial photography, multiple POV camera's, additional camera's with costume mounting systems, cutting edge camera technology, professional cameramen and editing, etc. He appears have gotten some limited additional funding outside kickstarter and planned to leverage a lot of free labor and donated equipment usage. As a business plan Ryan's approach has so many things that can go wrong and are really hard to fix without adequate funding. My impression of Ryan is that he's a very enthusiastic home run hitter that hits big on some items like this website and also strikes out a fair amount. I do fault Ryan for over promising the packraft project and for his lack of communication through kickstarter. That's not fraud, it's just a venture that's either failed, been delayed or is having to be downscaled. I hope he does communicate with the kickstarter contributors, I think he owes us that much of an explanation of what is going on. I don't fault him for not interjecting himself into this thread, it just feeds the trolls.

Separately, I assume the other kickstarter project you reference as a success is the Heart of Alaska one Erin and Hig are running. I've also donated to it, largely because I really like what they do and want to support them. But keep in mind that they are also late, delivery was supposed to be in Dec and if any product has come out they forgot me.

[Ian]

I did not pay in to this project and have no skin in the game. I paid a negligible amount of money ($15 perhaps) to the Death Valley boondoggle and the guy took the money and ran. I paid $20 towards Heart of Alaska and I'm receiving monthly updates and expect that I'll eventually get to watch a great movie.

My casual observations with Kickstarter:

Plan on getting ripped off and be pleasantly surprised when you're wrong.

Video editing can be a painfully time consuming process and is the difference between a half baked turd and a professional product.

It's possible to be a great athlete, musician, mountaineer, whatever and be a horrible project manager. Wonderful credentials in one field does not necessarily translate to a modest level of competence in another.

I suspect most failed Kickstarter projects are often times a product of a person or team whose enthusiasm was greater than their ability.

I've seen a few of Ryan's videos and think he is a person of authority on this topic and someone who will be taken seriously when he speaks on it. He's also charismatic in front of the camera. Based on the sample I've seen, if he ever finishes this project, I suspect it will be a great series and worth the money to those who have invested.

No skin off my nose either way, but I certainly wouldn't back any future projects until this one is resolved.

[Greg Mihalik]

"It's possible to be a great athlete, musician, mountaineer, whatever and be a horrible project manager."

+1

Edit: I speak from experience. Don't ask.

[Richard Lyon]

For sure Ryan owes his Kickstarter contributors a complete explanation, including a revised schedule. Given Ryan's reliance on his reputation among BPL members to facilitate his Kickstarter campaign I believe he owes all of us the same. Had he obtained his $35,000 from a single contributor I'm sure the contributor would have asked for and received that explanation long ago. Just because the money came from many people instead of one makes no difference in Ryan's obligation to come clean – fully clean.

Note: I did NOT contribute to the Kickstarter request.

[Dave T]

Brief Erin and Hig project timeline:

11/14/2014 – Project launched.
11/17 – Update.
11/25 – Update.
11/27 – Update.
12/1 – Music sourced.
12/3 – Update.
12/5 – Funding goal reached ($13,000)
12/8 – Update.
12/12 – Rewards update.
12/31 – Update.
1/14/2015 – Rewards update.
1/21 – Update with quick edit interview.
2/23 – Remaining rewards shipped. More filming.
5/22 – Rough cut coming together. Music by end of month. Draft and copies planned out by summer.

Let's think. They have run an entire Kickstarter campaign with deliverables in sight in 6 months. That's 1/3 of the time since even the last proper UPDATE (12/21/2013, 1.5+ years ago) about the status of "Learn to Packraft" (fully funded approaching 2.5 years ago). Including the extra film ("The Ultralight Backpacker") which was promised to be produced to get to the "stretch goal" of the full $35,000.

Props to Erin and Hig for their adventurous spirit and hard work to meet promises made in exchange for material support for their venture. Ambitious schedules and setbacks + following through and good communication = a reasonable project.

p.s. Ken "nm" Thompson… guess they got to you:

"You have not much future there. It will happen this way. You may be walking. Maybe the first sunny day of the spring. And a car will slow beside you, and a door will open, and someone you know, maybe even trust, will get out of the car. And he will smile, a becoming smile."

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Are these still the best videos to learn to packraft ? Have the updates been worth the wait ?

[Dave T]

Yes, they are (umm… will be) the best. Absolutely top drawer. They will totally be worth the wait. Amazing content. (Ideally you haven't had much interest in learning via those DVDs in the last 3 years.)

[Ken Thompson]

Will the drought be blamed for delays?

[Dave T]

either the drought, or the lack of interest in actually following through once the $35,000 is deposited in a bank account, and it look like lots more fun to hike in the sierra nevada, wind rivers, with boy scouts on glaciers, n' wherever else, than to follow through on commitments made. entitlement generation!

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Good point. It could be delayed over environmental concerns by lawyerous litigators from the forest service and department of fish and wildlife. With rafting being so cold, and everything so ready to combust, it might not be the best time to inspire people to get out there packrafting. Misplaced fires can take out lots of acres.

[Daniel Pittman]

RJ needs to put some of those scouts to work, earning their video editing merit badge…. Seriously though, I ain't mad. It wasn't a lot of money. We still cool. I'm not going to fund any more of his projects until I get my packrafting videos, but we cool.

[Jon Holthaus]

Let me start by saying I have no sweat in the game, however I'm confused on the sensitivity of subject. The fact of the matter is that customers paid for a service, that the provider hasn't performed, or provided any update in six months. There is no need for a character analysis, I'm sure he is a great guy; he seems incredibly intelligent, thoughtful, and knowledgeable, but if you paid a contractor at your house and he/she didn't perform, you would be mad too regardless of how nice, charismatic, etc. that person is. End of story. I hope this gets resolved quickly because this keeps dragging on.

[Andy Berner]

I've watched issues like this over the years and it does take a while for RJ to produce, but when he does it always seems to be worth the wait. Andy

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Maybe they are going to reshoot in higher definition to support 4K and 8K displays, and put out a blueray version too.

[Matt Orr]

From the Kickstarter page Terms of Use.

”A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.”

Sounds like a refund is due.

[Sr Al]

So this is still not resolved?

[Nick Gatel]

So this is still not resolved?

It’s sorta resolved. Everyone here on BPL learned how to pack raft during the waiting period, so no one really needs the video now.

[Nick Gatel]

I am disappointed in you. The most disgusting thing you have read on BPL? Really? I have read much worse over the years. MUCH.

Michael,

Seems this thread continued after my self-imposed exile last summer. I don’t get upset when people make poor financial decisions, but I do get ticked when they steal condiments from McDonald’s.

[Author]

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