John Muir Trail speed records – a question of style

Fast packing is very new still.
Although going unsupported has been around for a long time, people have just been using backpacks in the past.

Even now, there are only 3-4 specifically designed "fast packs" toward pack volumes that you would do unsupported FKT's on.
So although it's been around, it's just now that trail runners and specific fast packers are on the ban wagon.
It won't be big until more people jump on that ban wagon.

Howie just doesn't get it.

Yes going unsupported is in true hiking style and the time done on most unsupported FKT's would be faster than the supported counter-parts if that unsupported person had taken the weight off their backs.

Thing is no one cares. Trail runners only care about the fastest times.
It has for the most part been trail runners that go after and get the supported times
It has for the most part been hikers that go after and get the unsupported times.

There are trail runners and there are ultra runners

Trail runners are a bunch of pansies that just want to one up a marathoner on 1/2 marathoner that can say they did it on a trail.
These guys and gals probably made the step up from cross-fit after realizing how stupid it was.
They had probably done a longer mud run that lasted for hours and now they want to run a 1/2 marathon on the trail.

This is where 90% of all trail runners fall.

Then there are ultra runners.
I don't consider someone who has done one 50k an ultra runner.
Ultra runners go out and get it done. They mostly just run or cross train but still have trail running as there #1 priority.

So you can imagine that some of these good 50-100 mile runners would want to go for a supported FKT.
It's in there blood and what they know. It's the life of 95% of ultra runners.

Then there are backpackers.
99.5% of all backpackers carry huge packs and hike 10-15 miles a day
Well it's now more like 1.5% now that more people have jumped on this fast pack ban wagon now that they make fast packs for this.
Of those 1.5% who care about going lighter and faster, there are maybe 10% of those who would go after an unsupported FKT.

When you work out the percentages, trail runners have fast packers outnumbered in a HUGE margin.
This is why going unsupported is and will not be a big deal to trail runners and won't be for a few more years.

I say a few more years because FKT's in general are becoming much bigger in the trail running community.
Since they're are only 3 categories, people will start doing more unsupported FKT's very soon.

"Fast packing is very new still."

Nonsense. I had a ~2000 cubic inch UD running pack when I was 12. We're merely seeing the 2nd and 3rd post-nylon resurgence of the trend.

Aaron's comments (on purpose) and BGs (by accident) just point the extent to which trail running, and to a shockingly large extent ultrarunning, isn't a full-fledged outdoor pursuit. When I started doing ultras I was shocked by the lack of basic outdoor skills amongst most participants, which makes the fact that people who got into the outdoors through running would gravitate towards supported hikes quite understandable.

The mountaineering analogy isn't a bad one. In the 20s through the early 70s, there were enough unknowns that using oxygen was good style. Ditto for Sawchuck, Bakwin et al a decade or more ago on the JMT. Today, supplemental oxygen and supported JMT runs should both be clearly portrayed as less than ideal style.

" I'm starting to wonder if you guys are taking this seriously. "

Ralph – of course I'm not taking this style discussion seriously.

Ralph and Dave C. – I'm an ultra runner who happens to prefer the unsupported wilderness style because I have a mountaineering background … but, I've been shut down on this site enough times with that famous HYOH argument of finality to see the light, it just does not matter as long as they are out there and not getting in someone else's way.
The style argument is a joke.
Never thought I would preach this, but HYOH … :-)

p.s.
for unsupported attempts there should be a pre start weigh in that includes body weight, clothes worn, and stuff carried. then there should be a mandatory starting weight where those who are light would have to put extra weights in their packs. at the very least this would discourage some from going so light they are not prepared when things turn bad out there.

Check out this article from the Oct 1996 issue of backpacker magazine on page 72.

http://bit.ly/X0Mlv8

Gregory (a rather mainstream company), Montbell and Ultimate Direction are listed as people providing packs specifically meant for fastpacking.

Of course the *concept* , if not the term of fastpacking, is certainly not new as well. Earl Shaffer hiked the AT again for a second time in 99 days…or about 21 MPD. Nothing too radical today; with circa 1965 gear rather impressive. Though light loads are nothing new either :)

******RE: trail running, and to a shockingly large extent ultrarunning, isn’t a full-fledged outdoor pursuit

I’ve noticed that myself as well. Living in Boulder, I see a LOT of people who are athletes who happen to do their activities in the outdoors. Running a marked course with aid stations [1] may be outdoors, but it is an athletic event first and foremost. And that’s cool..but it is a lot different mentality than doing an outdoors activity that happens to be athletic (ski touring for example).

People mentioned how backpackers typically only do X miles vs ultra runners.

No argument there. On the other hand, many backpackers don’t keep track of mileage because they are going off-trail, scrambling up class three ridges and using a map to figure out a route. :)

[1] of course, someone could make the argument on longs trails that “trail magic” is making a thru-hike of the AT and the PCT more like an event vs an outdoor activity now complete with aid stations..oh wait, I did! :D http://www.pmags.com/trail-magic-sodas-water-caches-and-trash-oh-my

Don't give in Art. 96% of the time HYOH just means "I'd prefer to not think right now".

"HYOH" seems to serve the same function as "With all due respect…" and "No offence intended…"

As in the following constructions

"With all due respect….[insert highly disrespectful comment here]'"

"No offence intended…[insert highly offensive comment here]"

"[Insert long-winded explanation of how you have your head up your ass and are enjoying the wilderness incorrectly]…. but HYOH"

So what qualifies as a "full fledged" outdoor pursuit then?

First time I've heard of this new category but it already sounds like it's a rabbit hole of purist arguments about experiencing the outdoors.

Craig,
You mean you haven't been following the new "Full Fledged" FKT category? Aw man, your missing all the action!! Runners can only wear garments hand made by themselves, and only from natural materials or animal hides acquired along the route. The only piece of gear you're allowed to start with is a knife or spear and your spirit-animal of choice. Although support of any kind is frowned upon, bashing peoples heads in and taking their food is totally fair game. Kool stuff.

"HYOH" seems to serve the same function as "With all due respect…" and "No offence intended…"

In parenting discussions it's the equivalent to "hey, whatever works" [which as one writer once pointed out really means "see you in juvie!]

Have you see PMags, No, Hike *My* Hike blog entry? It's a good one.

I just read it. The highlight for me was discovering the term "pack sniffer".

Its hard to believe Pmags wrote that almost 3 years before this thread started. How did he make fun of a BPL thread 3 years before it started. I think he has a time machine. And I'm with Ralph, the "pack sniffer" term is great; maybe stolen from the "cake sniffers" of a line of children's books? Regardless, well done.

re: Full fledged outdoor pursuit

It has to do with the feel..an admittedly loose term.

golfing? A triathlon? Downhill skiing with a lift? Is a trail marathon an outdoor activity?

Or an athletic event that happens to take place outdoors.

Very few would say golfing is an Outdoors (vs outdoors) activity. A tri? Downhill skiing? a trail marathon?

Ah..now we are going along the spectrum. Is that an athletic event..or an Outdoors activity or both?

And like a certain anatomical part, we all have opinions on this subject and they all stink. ;)

I saw that they can be both. But when you have aid stations, marked courses, times and regulations for the race itself, it is more of an athletic event that happens to take place outdoors.

It is a much different mentality than say, doing a solo FKT run attempt up Longs Peak and back.

Did I mention we all have one and they all stink? ;)

re: HMHDI

The author obviously had too much time on his hands!

There's no shortage of ego stroking and bullsh@t being slung around in this thread. I'd be lying if some of it wasn't entertaining to read.

Does BPL exist in some mysterious vacuum? People are outdoors doing rad things in a self propelled manner, and ya'll are in here bantering over what's "pure" and "full fledged", or what's an "outdoor pursuit" versus an "athletic event". Bananas! Let's celebrate human locomotion of every ilk and let the trivial things take a backseat.

"trail running, and to a shockingly large extent ultrarunning, isn't a full-fledged outdoor pursuit"

Ok? Last I checked, the definition of an outdoor pursuit had already been well established. Now there's a hierarchy? My mind is blown!

Of course, the "fully-fledged unsupported is the only valid approach" people are just as annoying as the "it''s a race, going as fast as possible is all that matters" people. I just try to rise above it all.

http://xkcd.com/774/

Lots of thin skinned,no humor and easily offended types on this thread. You all would not last a minute with my close friends back east who affectionally a call me a dumb wop. :)

Who the heck said anything about hierarchy???? Cripe. You know, difference ain't a bad thing. But it is different.

If someone can't tell the difference between golfing, a tri and an organized race and a trail run than I suspect it is merely online wankery for the sake of arguing at its finest.

Being an argumentative type, I tend to do that too mind you. ;)

Ps. This is the philosophy forum…of course there is bantering! Stick to Cuben fiber threads for less philosophical bantering/wankery :D

Thin skinned!? If it weren't for my luscious brown shugga skin, you'd see right through me. ;-)

I was born in VA, lived in NY as a kid, but raised in the West, now settled in NM where we take offense only to matters of: Ford vs. Chevy, today or manana, green chile vs.red, Coors vs. Bud, and apparently threads on the purity of outdoor pursuits and FKTs.

I need to stay away from these threads, and I suppose BPL for that matter.

That said…

New inductees into the "Nolan's 14" alumni list:

http://www.pikespeaksports.us/profiles/blogs/nolan-s-14?xg_source=activity

http://www.trailrunnermag.com/component/content/article/120-adventure/1458-a-slew-of-new-nolans-14-finishers

Even more badass, IMO

http://longranger.justinsimoni.com/2014/07/tour-14er-is-on.html

Somewhere, someone is doing something amazing… and not telling anyone else about it.

So we have riots in Missouri, wackos shooting kids in schools, escalated US presence in Iraq and Syria… And then this thread. It doesn't matter. It isn't important.

Nick, comparatively, 99.9% of the content here within the BPL forums is absolutely trivial in light of all those examples. There is a forum for discussion as tenuous as this.

"Somewhere, someone is doing something amazing… and not telling anyone else about it."

That would be me Dave. It was nuts, likely the Alpha and Omega, a magnum opus of true outdoor style. I destroyed someone's aid station and finished with a bad rash in my armpits, a trophy elk, surfer's ear, and a FKT to boot. It looks like my right pinky toe has got to go and I scared the crap out of my sponsors; Monster Energy is dropping me, effective immediately. Wankers.But it was total nonstop gnar-gnar, totally worth it.

Full-fledged, all day, every day.

If you guys even knew.

Craig, was that supported or unsupported? I only care if it was unsupported.

personally I'm in awe of both records- truly remarkable!

I'd prefer unsupported for myself, something about doing it on your own that is very satisfying; then again I'm slow and much more apt to get closer to a unsupported FKT than unsupported- closer as in long, long ways off

there is some truth that not all mountain ultra runners are overly outdoor savy (or maybe they are and just assume the calculated risk???); I see it on the Bridger Run, the Devil's Backbone , the Elkhorns (all very rugged, remote environs), etc- folks that are dressed for optimum weather, which may be the case at the start, but obviously no guarantee in the mountains-no extra clothing/provisions/minimum water- of course I fall more in the Boy Scout end of the scale and probably lugging more than I should. There was one memorable Bridger Run that started out very bluebird and the folks in the short shorts (hey nothing against short shorts- see pics of our Joshua Tree traverse! :) ) and singlets were doing just fine, unfortunately a storm rolled and it started snowing that very messy (and dangerous) wet stuff. Needless to say there a number of folks that were in a bad pinch and had to be escorted off the mountain, fortunately no serious injuries that I'm aware of, but there could have been

I'm headed out this weekend w/ a new "fastpack", I plan on bagging at least one peak and my pack rod is getting strapped on as I got a lead on a nameless lake, w/ no trail that holds very large Golden Trout, grouse season is open and I'm half tempted to throw in my little .22 pistol as well- no FKT, but maybe a few style points? :)

Mike

if we want to talk about style … the Euros have it all over the Americans.
they know how to dress the part, and take style very seriously,
though I doubt they're carrying guns …

I'm more of a nice shade of "off-white" myself….

My peeps had very heated arguments about "sauces" vs "gravy&quot vs ragu; .

My wife is a Euro. She sure is styling when she says to take out the recycling. OK. Maybe not…

EDIT: Reminds me of Flight of the Conchords. "Business time" Google it…

Re: somewhere…someone is doing something amazing and not telling anyone about it:

On a slightly more serious note, who was that guy running (yes, running; not jogging, but running) up the south side of Glen Pass with a cuben (backpacking) pack on August 23rd, around mid-day?!?

If he wasn't doing an unsupported FKT, maybe he should have been…