John Muir Trail speed records – a question of style

Different strokes for different folks. Leor had people bring in food and camping gear for him and carried very little between "aid stations". He also had runners pace him for a good fraction of the hike. So it's not clear how additional help would enable anyone to run faster than what Leor did. If (when) someone breaks Leor's record it will be because of training and fitness and determination, not extra support. I think the supported record is pretty well defined as a result.

Unsupported efforts may be closer to what most people associate with a typical backpacking trip, but that doesn't make them any more or less valid as a choice of style. Each person has their own opinion as to which style resonates with them the most, but they are all valid. Most people around here view the unsupported record as a more impressive accomplishment since this is a backpacking-oriented forum. The fact is this is the way that Leor chose to challenge himself… I doubt he worries much about whether people think what he did would be more bad-ass if he had carried his own food and sleeping bag.

is a good read!

http://www.irunfar.com/2014/08/leor-pantilats-supported-john-muir-trail-fkt-report.html

Good point about the supported record. Perhaps there is a natural limitation there. But when we are talking about a difference in mere minutes you can't separate out the influences of support. Leor is badass regardless in this case, and I can tell from his blog that he was probably more excited about a hard, fast day in the mountains than a speed record anyway. Respect, Leor.

I don't think an unsupported record has to involve carrying a sleeping bag. It doesn't have anything to do with what you carry at all; it is about whether you use the assistance of others to improve your time. I wonder if people will generally be more impressed with an athlete that beats Leor's time supported or one that beats Brett's time unsupported and falls short of Leor's. I think you can guess where I might stand there.

My view is that supported attempts remove the relevance of the route so the athlete could run any equivalent distance/elevation route and achieve the same result. The route provides a set of challenges in terms of terrain, length and logistics. Supported attempts move the logistics from the equation through planning, (additional) people and money rather than planning and athletic performance. I also find the idea that the athlete is often paced by another runner to be quite abhorrent.

I value any unsupported record over a supported version.

I value when people challenge themselves, step outside their comfort zone, do something that causes them to reach deep inside themselves – whether physically, psychologically, or both. I value the courage it takes to overcome fears and demons and doubts – whether it's an elite athlete pushing for a record or a backpacker hesitantly, but steadfastly heading out on a solo trip for the first time. I value effort, supported or unsupported. I value people pushing themselves to go further than they've ever gone before – whether that's the first, excruciating mile after recovering from an illness or injury, or 100 miles, or 1,000 or more. I value determination. I value the attempt, whether successful or not, for so many people never bother to make the attempt at all. In short, I value the glorious, indomitable human spirit, regardless of which 'category' that spirit manifests itself in. It's all good.

Brett's Unsupported record may not stand for long.

NOT LONG AT ALL

Like maybe another 14 hours or so.

The parallel between your post and Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" oration, below, is eerie. And spot on. +1

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

A lot of FKT attempters just don't care about it unless it is the fastest.
Especially in Europe.

Unsupported is much harder on your legs with the extra weight with every step.
In a true sense of hiking, unsupported is the way to go.

The only huge benefit between the 2 is that going unsupported, you can sleep when your tiered and get the most of your sleep.
It's not a pre-staged place when you may not even be tired. Plus you are excited meeting the crew and you eat 1000 calories.

Unsupported, you can be asleep in 3 minutes and when you need it the most.

Howie,

I just read that you posted this on the FKT site as well.
So thought I would give you a better opinion because honestly, you seem to be talking in circles.

This seems to be what you are implying.

A person does a 50k race but goes unsupported and has everything he needs and gets 4th.
You are saying that who cares about the race, it's all about what 4th place did.
These FKT's are a race. Wilderness or not, it is a race.
It may be only a race against time, but none the less, it's the same as a 50k race.

To say going supported isn't worthy doesn't make any sense.
That's like saying all running races shouldn't have support.

Unsupported –
This is a hike. It's just fast. Even with running parts, you are covering the same trail in the same way every other hiker is, (even more so if the other hikers are resupplying).
So this is more of what the faster hiker can do. Sure it's a great way to go, but not the fastest.
It's harder but as mentioned in my previous posts, there are also advantages.

Supported –
More like a race and for the fastest time.
Has nothing to do with hiking with a 20 pound pack on at the start, (and shouldn't).
It doesn't matter how much help you have, you still have to move every step across that course yourself.
It's not as if there are a bunch of strong men lined up every 1/2 mile and run with you on their backs.
You have to do that trail.
You only eat up to 3 pounds of food a day, so the point of having more help would only slow you down.
You have to meet them, take the stuff, get used to the pace all over again, and so on.
Having help 2 times a day would be ideal, but even Leor said he would fore-go the pacers next time in the beginning.

Self Supported –
Any outside support other than what's already there.
How hard is that?
The burger stand and stores are there already.
Since stashing is illegal on the JMT, you could only resupply at the resupply locations.
That's why there is no Self Supported JMT record.
It's not long enough to need it.
That's why the PCT and At only have Self Supported and Supported records.

You seem to be so confused and misunderstood as to why there are 2 records and why the supported is even there.
Most people do see (now Andrews) time on the JMT as the harder time to get.
It's just not the fastest.
And it is a race…

To me it's like this: supported is a really long trail race, while unsupported is a really fast backpacking trip. Now of course I understand there are complexities, and overlap, but to me that crystallizes the difference, and is why I find the unsupported record more interesting, since I'm a backpacker and not a trail runner. I find it amazing that the supported record is not that much faster than the unsupported.

>" I find it amazing that the supported record is not that much faster than the unsupported."

That runners can often beat hikers over a long distance is what I find amazing. It takes humans an incredibly long time to learn to walk (name another species whose young can not swim/run/fly for a year), but in return, we have a very energy-efficient way to move at 5 kph.

We all know people who've joined groups and wear pink ribbons and train for months just to run 26 miles. Whereas many of us could walk 26 miles in 9-11 hours tomorrow.

The times I did Bay to Breakers, I'd be in the middle of pack and the pack would almost be jogging in place up the hills. I'd stop running and walk up. Because (1) it was far more energy efficient and (2) it really annoyed the runners around me as I passed them while walking.

Hi Aaron. Yes, I am confused about some things regarding this, which is why I have consulted this forum. I think though that you are misunderstanding my main point. You say that supported JMT is a race, the same as a 50k? How can that be when racers all create their own race courses with varying aid stations and facilities? A race needs to have common variables and parameters. It is not just a starting line and a finish line and then do whatever you want. One of the great wilderness races is the Alaska Wilderness Classic. The parameters are set, and the race is conducted solely on the merits of the performance of the racers. You can't compare apples and oranges, but that is what it is like comparing one individual's supported JMT time to the next. The unsupported JMT is the closest version of a fair race for the JMT.

I am not saying "who cares about the race," on the contrary. I am saying that the unsupported race is the only meaningful one, because one's time is determined solely by one's performance, not influenced by the performance of a crew of unregulated supporters.

Who says an unsupported record has to involve carrying 20 lbs? Who says supported means you could get physically carried by someon? I am not sure you are understanding my question. It would be faster if you cut the switchbacks. It would be faster if someone stashed a bicycle for you in certain places. It would be faster if you got a blood transfusion after a 100 miles. You have to define the game. I just don't agree that it is all about the faster time. It is about a setting up a fair competition, with parameters that are agreed upon in advance, and with consideration for the nature of the venue and course. What is cool about the unsupported race is that you don't have to do that much at all. There is a set route, there is a racer, and there is no support. Any questions? Ready, set, go!

Well, you did say it.

The reason there is no official rules, no official records, etc. , is because almost no one actually cares. The total people in the world that it actually matters to would fit in my house, and my house isn't that big. Possibly my living room?

No I don't think I did say it MB. But are you inviting us all over to your house?

I'll come over, but only if MB provides food and sleeping bags. No way I'm carrying my own.

On FKT, there's actually a "thru-hike style" in addition to supported and unsupported.

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/29/pacific-crest-trail-ca-wa

Whatever floats one boat as long as there's no littering or other nuisance activities (as other posts on similar threads have pointed out). Might save more angst or drama on some other threads by simply pointing this out.

In terms of style, I prefer reading more towards the backpacking end (thru-hike) but also appreciate trail running is getting more mostly younger folks out there, supporting wilderness, public lands, and staying healthy. Might even be some ideas in the trailrunning blog posts.

Example: Certainly wish I was just wearing a hydration system going through the Black Range forest fire snags in what became a surprise dry camp (in retrospect). Next major burn I go thru will be DIAD (with a cooler of beverages with high alcohol content awaiting at "base camp").

Right now, waiting for my shift to end and my offset Labor Day to begin, all that matters is getting out there.

The media celebration of supported style…
http://www.irunfar.com/2014/09/trailive-episode-5-the-john-muir-trail.html

I hold the fasted time for doing the JMT under these rules:

climb 17 peaks including Mt Ritter, Mt, Banner, North Pal, Polomonium, Sprlit, Whitney (duh), Agassiz, Sill,

take 4 layover days

hike out to South Lake and Onion Valley for food drops

sleep on top of Mt. Whitney

catch a lot of fish

"Isn't Brett's accomplishment still the gold standard? I think it is the only one that matters at this point?"

Brett no longer holds the record it would seem, but yes, I agree with you. Supported records hold no interest for me, just as golf does not. I don't think pacers hould be allowed in ultras either, but I see little value in arguing the point.

As for ultras, I can speak only about the Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run. Obviously this is not an ordinary run around the block. Oldtimers over a certain age are allowed to have a pacer for the entire 100-mile course. All competitors are allowed to have a pacer starting only at the 62-mile point. A few competitors run it straight through without any pacer so that the pacer can't slow them down.

What is the justification? It is mostly a safety factor. After you have run 62 miles or so, the sun may be setting and the trail may be more difficult. In the event that a competitor falls off the trail, gets bitten by a snake, or some similarly unexpected event pops up, there is somebody there to go for help. The nearest checkpoint might be five miles ahead or five miles behind.

If they disregarded the rules, the pacer might be the "mule" for the competitor and might be carrying some of the ordinary load (extra water, etc.). At night, the pacer might be running in front with the brightest flashlight in order that the competitor might save battery power.

For a trail like the JMT, just being a pacer has got to be brutal.

–B.G.–

The John Muir Trail Association (there should be one) needs to get its act together and define all criteria for record attempt purposes. Whatever they say goes.
The trail should be a closed course whenever records are attempted so that no one can illegally aid the attempt.

Good idea.

I think the trail should also be closed for training runs to avoid distractions.

"Good idea.

I think the trail should also be closed for training runs to avoid distractions."

And perhaps a week before each attempt to ensure the trail is in decent shape and there are no backpacking stragglers.

I'm starting to wonder if you guys are taking this seriously.

As a more practical solution, maybe we should construct an indoor JMT in a large hangar with air conditioning, so that every gets the same weather?