is a knife a non-essential item?

1. You're in a forested area. High temperatures are in the upper 30's (F/slightly above freezing). It's been raining nearly constantly for 4 days, and continues to rain. While attempting a stream crossing. . .

I was doing that last month (see Manfred's Trip Report, I'm in one shot from the first day) and going back solo was more edgy than going out as one of four. Not for the 40-odd frigid river crossings on the return, but for the one really large river crossing.

Answer: a mini-Bic and some wax paper. That and other helpful stuff is always in my PFD for exactly that sort of occurrence.

2. You awaken suddenly to find that the only entrance to your tent is engulfed in flames

Answer: There would an impromptu seam-strength test. I might not win against a trad 4-season tent, but I could shred a UL tent. Honestly, when I do bring a knife (which is usually), I don't sleep with it.

David, in your first scenario a knife would help as well for fire starting. Find a large tree branch that is mostly sheltered, break it off, and split it down a bit to get dry (or dryish) pieces.

"1. By avoiding the situation.
2. By avoiding the situation."

How would you avoid the situations?

Justin: I would definitely go for the driest branches low on the tree. I find they snap off just fine (of the Black Spruce we have up here). I agree that a serious knife could be helpful, but for me, I'd rather not rely on hundreds of splitting/batoning operations with a sharp knife and trembling hands. When I last had that situation (15 years ago when my wife dumped her kayak on ocean-beach landing), I just piled driftwood over the stove until the wood was burning well and then extracted the stove. It wasn't elegant and it wasn't the "one-match" teepee/log cabin fire my scoutmaster taught us, but it was a roaring blaze very quickly.

Knives are multi-purpose.

So are wax paper, a stove, stove fuel, and hand sanitizer. Even synthetic clothing in a pinch.
"Better living through Chemistry" -DuPont.

If I packed a wood-burning stove or when I plan on a small campfire, I bring a small pull saw before I bring a medium or big knife.

But to each their own.

"1. By avoiding the situation."

How would you avoid the situations?

Read Manfred's Brooks Range trip report. Sometimes, the right response is to change plans.

But yeah, stuff happens. Good to have a plan, a back-up plan, and the skills to make it happen.

I wasn't really being serious, but backpacking always carries some risks. We have to assess how real (probable) those risks are for a particular trip and how far we are prepared to go to mitigate them. For the trips I do, the odds of either of AndyF's situations coming about are extremely low and though I carry a knife, it isn't in case 1. or 2. happens. (It's unlikely I'd get to my knife in time for scenario 2, in any case.)
I have a friend who often asks for advice (not backpacking related) who always counters any suggestion with, "But what if…", which taken to the logical limit makes any solution impossible. Your post reminded me of this a little.

David, I'm not saying that those situations don't happen, but Andy said, "For those who don't think a knife is an essential item, how would you deal with the following scenarios without a knife?"
Those 2 scenarios are avoidable on many trips, so a knife may not be essential on all trips.

How would a knife help you build a fire if all your fire starting gear got swept downstream with your pack?

I liked the first response. 'Avoid the Situation.'

Most every life and death situation I have ever read about seems to have been in some shape or form the cause of ill preparation and recklessness.

David, that's pretty good, but I'm skeptical about:

1. wax paper catching wood on fire which has been soaked for many days

2. being able to break branches off to get sufficient inner dry wood

3. whether the Bic would work after being soaked

4. wearing a PFD device while backpacking in case someone presents a scenario like this (just kidding, I know what you meant)

BPL always satisfies and fills that spot for a virtual journey from question to almost any abstract hypothetical :)

Maybe time to real it in a little. Let me remind all of what they know already and that is the tool between your ears will be the ONLY single tool that will save you when it hits the fan. No one piece of gear will save your bacon. Make sure the tool between your ears is the sharp one. You can have all the appropriate equipment for survival on board and if you have ever seen anyone panic you would know it quickly goes out the door real fast.

I contemplate hypotheticals inwardly all the time. It entertains the what ifs but if I sit at home going over the hypotheticals and I come to the conclusion that a certain piece of gear is going to aid/save me in a particular scenario Murphy will assuredly lend a hand in me leaving that piece of gear behind. I really have to have complete, or near as I can muster, faith in my ability to problem solve. Then there is the stark reality that some real life incidents simply cannot be overcome and that's when even the best of the best don't make it home.

jimmyb

"How would a knife help you build a fire if all your fire starting gear got swept downstream with your pack?"

Excellent point, if the knife and firestarting was in the pack rather than on-person. ;)

Unless of course you can start a fire without needing any gear, which relates to jimmy b's point about the sharpest tool being between the ears.

Andy:

Really, try a little wax paper some day. It's an impressive fire-starting trick.

In my area, with our trees, absolutely, I can strip 1/2" to 1" diameter branches barehanded. Further, I can beak the sub branches and twigs into shorter pieces. YTMV (your trees may vary). But again, I'd argue for a small saw (I posted how to MYOG an 11 gram pull saw for cheap) because that makes 1" stuff go fast but 2 and 3" is totally doable with a saw but not so easy with a knife (when dry).

A wet Bic can be a problem, true. I vac pack one for my pocket and leave my daily driver unpackaged.

"Backpacking" in Alaska often has a mix of canoes, kayaks, pack rafts, motor boats, and bush plane involved. In many of those craft, yes, I am wearing a PFD.

When I'm just hiking, I have two cargo pockets in my nylon long-sleeve shirt with the items I want handy plus basic emergency gear. Before a dodgy river crossing, I'd transfer the fire-starting kit and the PLB to a chest pocket.

Here's a link to David's MYOG pull saw, for anyone else interested.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/58657/index.html?skip_to_post=499422#499422

David,

Thanks, interesting hearing about your approach, and that’s an ingenious saw idea!

I consider a batonable fixed blade (around 4″) essential simply because it gives me the ability to split-baton soaked wood to get to the dry stuff. At 3.1 oz in its lightest sheath, the Mora #1 weighs as much as a set of Groundhog tent stakes (which I usually don’t carry because I use sticks, sharpened with the knife if necessary).

For anyone who is interested, here’s a former military survival instructor showing how to split and prepare soaking wet wood. He uses a folding pocket knife, but I don’t trust batoning a folding knife, or my hypothermic, injured self to use one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c90jBC31lrU

But, having said all of that in favor of a knife being an essential item, I have to admit that it’s not essential. There are other alternatives…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hu_cZChQoC8

Im in the, it isn't essential but I carry it, camp. For me its a leatherman micra.

Knife blade
Scissors
Tweezers
Screwdriver (used several times/season on flicklock poles)

I admit it doesn't earn its 1.75oz weight every trip. There are lighter, better blades, but its a package deal and a small luxury.

Its the one item where my daily carry is lighter: Gerber zipper pull knife on keyring at 0.67oz.

At a certain point things fall under Skirka's stupid light category.

You can definitely power through wet or frozen wood with enough fire starter. 2 or 3 esbits will take care of almost everything. Or if you happen to be in a birch forest, you basically have unlimited fire starter all around you.
Often I will start some damp twigs with fire starter and throw some larger splitted pieces on to sustain the fire a bit more after the twigs catch, much easier than splitting all the way down to kindling level.

"Maybe time to real it in a little. Let me remind all of what they know already and that is the tool between your ears will be the ONLY single tool that will save you when it hits the fan. No one piece of gear will save your bacon. Make sure the tool between your ears is the sharp one. "

Not bringing the right tools could be considered not using the one between your ears.

Just because a knife is not essential to someone does not mean it has to be the same for someone else. Same thing over and over.
You don't need a tent? Good for you. I am not going to tell you it's essential; I might say I personally consider a shelter essential in the mountains, for me.

I am not going to ridicule you for leaving your knife at home and I don't question your manhood either. So please, why ridicule someone who sees a knife as something worth bringing along? I already used mine twice today. When I check my cameras alone I will not go without my knife and screeching mace. To me that is using my main tool.

With the tool between my ears, I can walk into the wilderness buck naked, make a knife from obsidian, skin a dozen marmots and make clothes and shelter from their hides. I call this technique Marmot Craft UL.

I find that by bringing clothes and a small knife, I can spend more time enjoying my time on the trail instead of committing acts marmotcide and potentially finding myself on a list which requires for me to notify my neighbors about my alternative hiking lifestyle.

Not a necessity but I find having a knife to be a valuable tool from time to time from cutting finger/toenails to cutting moleskin to size for my kid. HYOH and all that.

Katharina, as you have quoted me above I have to assume your remark about ridiculing someone in your post is pointed at me. As I don't succumb to pissin' matches on the internet I will simply ask you to read my other posts. If you think that I am ridiculing anyone your powers of observation leave a little to be desired. I TOO carry a knife. No where did I state anyone had to or not. Please read the whole thread, please.

jimmyb

edit- its all good. just a little misunderstanding :)

Ian considering Death by Marmot in an earlier post about gatoraide bottles and Marmotcide its probably a draw. Marmotcide on brother :)

jimmyb

Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't, and sometimes I carry a really big knife – mostly because of rabid Marmots (I concur with Ian).

I have a 1.2oz LST Gerber that makes most trips but I also have a Fallkniven S1 that is ideal if I am going to have to start a generous camp fire and is used for both chopping wood and whittling hot dog sticks in record time (I have kids, hence the name). It is 6 oz of pure power.

Jimmy b. I quoted you and used it to make one point.
I did not craft my post merely as a reply to you. I was addressing a number of people.

> I can walk into the wilderness buck naked,
They already do that in Germany once a year …
Pretty horrible sight at times too.

> make a knife from obsidian,
Try doing that in our sandstone country. Not a hope in …
No flint or chert around either.

Yeah, I usually carry a knife – typically that 15 g Deejo I reviewed. Bigger is not needed – for me.

Cheers

Is food essential on a three day backpacking trip? I have heard that you can survive around 30-40 days without food, so three days should be no problem. It may cause some hunger pains and other discomforts, and be sub-optimum from a performance point of view, but will save several pounds. Under what criteria is food really "essential?" Why have I never seen a discussion regarding whether or not food is essential?

The problem with this discussion is that before you can decide whether or not something is essential, you first has to agree upon a common definition of "essential." If you don't have a common definition then a better framework for discussion is simply to ask what purposes others have for bringing certain implements and why they think it is worth the weight. No judgement.