update on alky stoves on the JMT

Well, the message from the NPS is clear — yes, alcohol stoves are allowed.

The other message, however is NOT clear — Ms. Schweizer clearly does not know the difference between a white gas stove and an alcohol stove — so who knows? Since the (future) restrictions require that the stove be "pressurized" and with a "shut-off" valve, I would say that — when the restrictions are adopted — your alcohol stove would not be allowed.

Why the herd at the JMT Yahoo site thinks the ban is in place right now: conjecture and rumors, I would bet!

I think this phrase says everything about why there are so many misunderstandings about which stoves are and are not allowed.

And when you look at the forest service's definition of "portable stove" all it says is the ubiquitous "pressurized gas, jellied petroleum, etc"
There is no other choice of stove type.

I wonder how many actual jellied petroleum type stoves will be there this summer. Like it or not, its the outdated terminology, read chapter and verse from a set of rules from 40 years ago that makes people mistrust. Also they always seem to hedge their bets with the "things may change if there is an extra fire risk". Will they give you a pass if you got on the trail when it was legal, but it became illegal while you are on the trail? I think it is very doubtful you will get fined either way. It just a bit Kafkaesque – complete with the officials who tell you you must obey the regulations, but where it is impossible to say for sure what those are, and how they relate to you.

They keep "Jellied Petroleum" in the regulations to allow Sterno type fuel, even though every ranger I've talked to knows that its actually jellied alcohol. I'm not sure why they haven't changed the terminology.

The standard forestry regulations in California do require all gas/liquid stoves to be pressurized and have a shut off, and Esbit is prohibited. I can't use alcohol nor Esbit in any of the local mountain ranges. However, Yosemite and SEKI (Sequoia/Kings Canyon) have different regulations and permit them (its wood fires that they are most concerned with). The main area that I was unsure of was Inyo. I was told last year that it had to be pressurized gas, but it sounds like they are allowed there too at the moment.

Many people reported using alcohol stoves for the length of the JMT last year with no problems from the rangers. It would be nice if there was some kind of clear list of what is and isn't allowed for the length of the trail to give some assurances.

Maybe I can help a little. In addition to the clarifications that I reported here a month ago, I have more.

On July 9th, I stopped at the Inyo National Forest office in Bishop to pick up a reserved permit. Once I had that, I asked them for some clarifications about the fire policy. They always start with "there are no campfires allowed." Yes, we all have that understood. Inyo and the national parks there currently allow just about any kind of backpacker stove, be that butane, alcohol, white gas, or Esbit. That much is due to the fire status in Inyo and those national parks.

I asked about the phrase "as long as it has an on/off control." That currently only pertains to Sierra National Forest. Apparently it has a tighter restriction status now due to the drought of course. Any of these jurisdictions can change their status as the summer goes along. However, currently the only place for the "on/off control" is Sierra. So, for most of the JMT, you are good with just about anything. As soon as you pass into Sierra, then it tightens up to the on/off control stove. To me, that means white gas or butane is allowed, but it prohibits Esbit or a normal simple alcohol burner.

–B.G.–

Call or email Yosemite National Park Superintendent Don Neubacher

Don Neubacher
Don_Neubacher@nps.gov
(209) 372-0496

Ask him about Sterno and the use of alcohol in stoves like the StarLyte burner used in the Trail Designs Caldera Cones. Fuel is poured in and can't be spilled out. The lid of the stove can be used as the shutoff valve/device. The lid can be placed right next to the stove when in use in case of emergency needs.

The head guy should know the rules and regulations.

"The head guy should know the rules and regulations."

Dan, this is only partially true.

The NP Superintendent is going to know the rules for his own park, but he won't be able to speak much about other parks and national forests. Sometimes they know more than they'll say, and sometimes they say more than they really know. Very often, the superintendent is more of a politician, and he will just refer the question to the person who handles public inquiries. Unfortunately, that person may be a junior staffer, so they may not know all of the terminology.

At the last time that we discussed this matter here, the John Muir Trail covers parts of Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite, plus parts of Inyo and Sierra national forests. That's why I sent out inquiries to all five and reported the responses here.

–B.G.–

"At the last time that we discussed this matter here, the John Muir Trail covers parts of Sequoia, Kings Canyon, and Yosemite, plus parts of Inyo and Sierra national forests. "

Thanks so much for all your help on this, Bob.

Based on what you found out in your previous inquiries and what I've been reading on the Yahoo JMT group – that information was at such odds I thought I'd inquire again.

I do think the chief problem is in terminology, and the powers that be continue to trot out outdated and irrelevant terminology (jellied petroleum? an alcohol stove like the whisperlite???!!!) that allows this to persist year after year.

I really thought there'd be some clarification this year – so far it seems like everyone but Sierra NF has updated their comments and it seems cool to use a starlyte. As Dan says, it's a pretty darned safe stove I would think, especially when paired with a caldera cone.

I'm still on the fence about my canister vs starlyte set up. It doesn't really matter, I guess. But all the threads I've seen on the olicamp/firemaple Ion/Hornet and Kinetic/Gnat stoves (the two that I have) make me a teeny bit loathe to trust them for a month. It would just be so much easier if everyone would all get on board with some basic language and regulations.

Yes, Kafka comes to mind.

Bob, ya gotta get the big guys involved. If I lived out thata way I'd be up there talkin to the head honcho. I would think the big guys of the major parks along the JMT get together to discuss park politics that involve stove usage, fire bans etc.

Here is my email exchange from Sierra National Forest:

Dear Valued Member of the Public,

Thank you for your email, that is exactly what we are looking for, and that is more than okay with us for you to bring it along. Thank you for checking before you go and have a safe trip!

Sincerley,
Sierra National Forest Public Affairs,
1600 Tollhouse Rd,
Clovis CA 93654
(559) 297-0706
public_affairs@fs.fed.us

Can I please have some clarification about the definition of "portable stove?" I have a small spill-proof alcohol stove (it has carbon mesh over the top that does not allow liquid to escape) and is contained in a stable titanium cone the pot fits in securely. Anyway – Yosemite National Park tells me I am free to use this along the whole length of the JMT. Inyo and SEKI say the same thing; what are your regulations for such a stove?? Can I bring it or not?? Thanks! jen.

Good stuff, Jen! That's an eminently sensible response from them, too. :^)

That IS a nice unambiguous reply. Maybe carry a printed version with you, and you will even be safe from any authorities with a different interpretation, though the rangers generally seem to be more flexible in this regard. Sounds like you are all set.

.
"that is exactly what we are looking for, and that is more than okay with us for you to bring it along."

That's a powerful statement. "more than ok" Caldera Cone and StarLyte, more than ok to cruise the JMT. Jen, have a "quiet" one month trail time :-)

"Bob, ya gotta get the big guys involved."

Actually, no you don't, Dan.

The Superintendent of a major national park is not going to come down to the ground level to show any interest in this stove versus that stove. Why, because there is no money involved for them. Superintendents want to talk about budgets and priorities.

Now, if you could get some entity like the Pacific Trail Association to light a fire under some congressman, and then get the congressman to light a fire under the National Park Service… maybe you might get some clarification. However, that is a lot of fires to light, and it probably won't happen.

I prefer to identify the single public affairs person at each park or forest, and build some rapport, thank them for their help, etc. Then, when I explain the whole problem and how it affects me, that person will be more likely to get me a fairly whole answer. So far, this is what I've done, and that's how I got my answers.

Full Disclosure: I am primarily an Esbit user, but I have most of every type of stove known to mankind. So, when I head to the mountains to pick up my wilderness permit, I will normally have my Esbit burner in my pack, and in my car I will have a butane stove with fuel as the backup system, just in the event that some permit-issuer has heartburn over Esbit. So far, I have never had to switch over that way at the last minute, but I am prepared.

Suppose that you were going to enter XYZ national forest on July 1, but you started at some other place on June 15 and there were no special fire restrictions at that time, so you started with an alcohol burner. Then, due to the drought, on June 20 they raised the fire hazard status and prohibited alcohol stoves starting June 25. You entered on July 1 and the ranger found you cooking over alcohol then. What's he going to do? If you showed him your permit that allowed a stove, then he can't hang you right there. If you had done a good job of fireproofing your campsite and the area around your stove, and then if he understands where you were coming from and when, about all he is going to do is to warn you and then he moves on. If he was belligerent about it, he might try to do more, but that is unlikely.

Besides, I see just about zero rangers on the trail these days.

–B.G.–

I'm planning to order a Ti-Tri Sidewinder with Starlyte burner and a 900 ml Evernew wide pot. This will be my first alcohol stove, and I'm excited to use it on the JMT this August. Is it possible to purchase fuel on the trail, or do I need to carry it all from the beginning? I assume that I can't mail it with my food.

Sean, I bought and used that exact set up last year on the JMT, Also my first Alcohol set up. It worked wonderfully, and I was able to buy fuel by the oz at MTR without issue.

"Is it possible to purchase fuel on the trail, or do I need to carry it all from the beginning? "

You should have no problem purchasing it at TM, RM, VVR and MTR, at excessive prices, but I guess that is not as much of an issue compared with the convenience.

"Actually, no you don't, Dan."

You're right Bob.

Jennifer proved you right :-)

Full disclosure: My goto fuel is wood :-)

Wood fires have become kind of a no-no in many parts of California now.

Wood fires have generally been banned in many of the high elevation parts of national parks here. Now, due to the drought, some of the national forests have banned wood fires as well. In most places, they consider a twig-burning backpacker stove to be in the same category as a campfire. So, Dan, you wouldn't like it one bit.

–B.G.–

I'm stuck here in the Midwest…Illinois……green and moist….wood burning country LOL :-)))))

After the Rim Fire last year and a continuing drought this year, you can bet that rangers are going to be serious about fire management.

But there's a difference between the letter and the spirit of the law that most back country rangers understand.

The very ambiguity of different requirements in different jurisdictions over different months suggests that rangers aren't going to go all hard core over your stove, so long as you can show that you're using it in a safe way. They have bigger fish to fry–but not over an open fire.

Well, this may open up a can of worms but I thought that I would chime in on this topic. I understand that different region (NPS, National Forest, Local regulations) all have different rules and regulations. I understand that there are sweeping generalities that seem unfair and inappropriate. I understand that these regulatory decisions are made with limited data (along with their limited funding). Finally I understand everyone’s frustrations over how they believe that they follow safe practices and will operate their stoves in a responsible manner. So what can one do?
Work within the system and change the rules and regulations through education and enlightenment. This is a long road to go but you can only make change by changing people’s world view (or have a boat load of money). Until then I would encourage this community to become stewards for following the regulation and doing the right things. Why? Because, there is little enforcement of these regulations in the backcountry. If you start bypassing regulation, other people will see that this is happening and may follow suite. These followers may not be as skilled as you are, but if they see other people cutting corners, they will cut corners as well. Don’t believe me? How many people on this forum bitch about improperly buried TP, illegal fire rings or numerous other violations that get under our skin?
I run a cottage industry selling alcohol/Esbit Cooking systems and I am leaving next week to hike Onion Valley to Whitney to Horseshoe Meadow. You know what? I bought a canister stove for the trip. I will use alcohol and Esbit where I can and the canister stove where I can’t. Stewardship is an important concept to embrace. Leave no trace, got it. Stewardship – make it part of your UL experience. I’m going to bed.

Jon, I'm not sure I'm exactly clear on your post – my point is that I WANT to follow the regulations….I just don't know what they are. I will not sneak an alcohol stove where it shouldn't be, nor will I use a stove that isn't safe.

I have asked in several posts what people thought of the safety of a starlyte stove with the cone…and the consensus is that because it is spill-proof, combined with the stability of the pot in the cone, that it is a safe combo.

So if I have permission to use it, then what's the problem?

I ask this not at all to be snarky – honestly – I just don't understand the regulations and what I can and cannot bring. That's why I asked all the players along the JMT, and I have their responses – including the latest from Sierra NF which said my set up is "exactly what we are looking for."

Here is a link from the Pacific Crest Trail ascociation. When in doubt, use a gas cannister stove (least common denominator). My 2 cents

http://www.pcta.org/2014/2014-pct-fire-restrictions-california-16670/