How light is light?

[Kerry Wilson]

As I get older (59 this year) I realize that if I want to keep backpacking that I have to get lighter, however most of my trips are at least 5 to 7 days.

I have purchased lots of new gear this year trying to get my week long load down to the "light" range, but am hitting a wall at around 40# and this only after cutting out some perceived essentials (book, bear proof container, gps etc.). BTW my last week long trip was a 52# pack after trimming out the "luxuries".

On that trip it turned out the pack itself weighed north of 7 lbs. but I didn't really know that until for the first time (now) I decided to weigh each of the items going onto my back….what an eye opener for an old dog like me……

I am about to purchase a ULA catalyst, to go with my other "lightweight" gear purchases, and already have that figured into my #40 weight for my upcoming 7 day trip….

I have dropped my down bag for a Thermarest Alpine down quilt, swapped my msr gas stove for a 6 oz. butane windpro II, retired the old thermarest pad for a downmat ul7, and picked up a new Lightheart gear Solong 6 tent all of which made a real dent in the weight, but it seems as I read that I am still outside the "circle of love" regarding total weight.

I am not a minimalist when it comes to gear(my toothbrush still has a full handle) and at my age a comfort penalty here and there seems reasonable (ie the downmat, solong 6), so I know that I am unlikely to ever reach the "ultralight" level of backpacking.

However, I read with great interest all the posts by members of this community who are talking in terms I can't quite visualize (10lb base weights, 25lb. fully loaded) etc.

It occurred to me that many of the posts I was reading seemed to be for shorter trips like maybe 3 days or so, and being as I am on a pleasure/hiking/camping/fishing trip, not a thru hike(not yet at least as the full PCT is on my bucket list) my question becomes:

(1) How light would most of you experienced lightweight hikers expect to be on a 7 day Rocky Mt. or PNW trip while packing a little fishing gear and targeting 2 1/4 lb. of food per day with a few of your personally selected creature comforts along the way?
(2) Is the ULA Catalyst a good choice when it seems I will be pushing the 40# threshold?

I sure would appreciate a little calibration here as my eyes are going crossed from modifying my gear spreadsheet so many times……

[Bob Gross]

Hey, Sonny Boy. You might as well get with the program now and visualize a 10-pound base weight. That way, you can keep going when you get really really old. Are you looking for a special dispensation from the Pope, or what?

I go for one week at 25 pounds, fully loaded, but this is for the Sierra Nevada. Of course, that contains 2.9 pounds of camera gear, a bear canister, satellite communicator, and a bunch of other stuff that you may not bother to take.

Your 2 1/4 pounds of food per day sounds particularly heavy. I typically go with about 1.3 to 1.5 pounds per day, but I always have food left over.

I think I know. You are carrying 40 pounds or so. That generates some serious hunger, so you need more food. I would bet that if your load were 20-25 pounds, then you could get your food weight reduced a bit.

All of this works in a descending spiral. Once you reduce the weight of a couple of big items, then you can reduce the weight of another one (like, a pack). Then you can reduce the weight of some food. Then you reduce more and more.

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

At 59 you are kinda young still. :-)

The Catalyst is meant to be a 75 L pack, but in our BPL review it came in at 48 L. The discrepancy, which is huge, is because of the way ULA measures pack volume. You probably will NOT get a real 75 L in it.
Read the review at
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_2.html

Much of the difference in base weight happens for good technical reasons. If you are going out for a few days in the Sierra in summer, when you KNOW you will be warm and dry, you can cut corners. But if you are going high up in the mountains in the shoulder seasons, you WILL need to carry more gear. 40 lb is still high. For alpine stuff in shoulder season we figure on about 20 lb base weight, but we are very comfortable at that.

Cheers

[Kerry Wilson]

Well, I have some work to do…my base weight is currently spec'd at 22 lbs….sounds like I need to go back to the drawing board…..I like the idea of packing less food.

[Bob Gross]

"If you are going out for a few days in the Sierra in summer, when you KNOW you will be warm and dry, you can cut corners."

Except when I get rained on for five days in a row.

–B.G.–

[Charles Grier]

I'm 77 years old. I'm leaving to solo the JMT in a few days. My base weight with bear can is14 pounds. For the first half of the walk I'll be carrying 21 pounds or less: two re-supply stops. I'll be carrying eleven days of food out of MTR at 16 pounds so my max weight will be about 30 pounds, maybe a bit more.

[Ken Thompson]

2.25 lbs per day is heavy for food. My whole cook kit weighs 6oz, including a stove.

You have a scale?

How much does that quilt weigh?

Have a great trip Charles. You're an inspiration to us all.

[Steven Paris]

Kerry,

If you can get up to Portland, Next Adventure carries ULA packs and Gossamer Gear packs. Also, Six Moon Designs is based in Beaverton and we have a Snow Peak store, a Montbell store and a GoLite store.

We're lucky around here to have some options to see some UL gear before buying!

[Kerry Wilson]

Thanks everyone who has posted so far, I appreciate all the insight, especially the comments on the food budget….

Dropping it (food budget) down to what seems more reasonable (1.5#/day) with a few other tweaks gets me to around a 32# pack weight, so I'm getting there I guess but dang I hate to give up stuff, guess I should get a pack goat…:0)

My Thermarest Alpine quilt comes in at 28 oz. which seemed featherlite at the time I acquired it (before I found this site)when compared to my down sleeping bag which probably weighs in the 4# range…

I am sure I made some mistakes along the way when buying my new gear even tho it seemed I was going lite, but some of my problem is most likely my desire to have a backup for my backup kind of thinking so I just have to get my head around "multiple use" thinking and leave the kitchen sink at home….

Now if I can just settle in on a pack…I am 6'0 and 250# any suggestions? I generally plan to buy gear that will last for many years, so am not reluctant to spend some money, but comfort is a big deal with me.

Thanks again and keep the comments coming, I am pickin up what your layin down…..
Kerry

[Ian]

I'd take the suggestion to check out the packs. Sounds like with the weight you're carrying at the moment, the ULA Catalyst is well worth considering. If you drop the weight and bulk of you gear where it becomes too much pack for you for three season hiking, it'll still be a good option for winter outings.

[M G]

You'll get the best feedback and suggestions by posting a complete gear list in a speadsheet formst with weights.

28oz is alot for a quilt.I'm assuming this is the one rated to 35F and using 700 FP down. You would do much better with a 30F quilt from EE or any of the other cottage manufacturers. Probably truer to the temp rating and lighter.

[Kerry Wilson]

Roger, thanks for pointing me to the review on the packs. Looks tho like its time for an update, many of the packs listed are no longer current production models and so the review provided limited value, but it did give me some things to think about in pack selection.
Kerry

[Bob Moulder]

Kerry, from what you mentioned in your first post about the weight of your present empty pack – over 7 lbs!! – you are going to be getting close to your goal if you can get a 1.5 – 2lb UL pack, which will cut your base by more than 5 lbs… That's a LOT!!

[Mike Henrick]

Everyone's got something to be afraid of, in your case you sound afraid of being uncomfortable. In fact, you're already uncomfortable where it counts the most – lugging that 40+ pound pack on the hike! If you're contemplating a through hike, you'll spend a solid 10 hours a day with your pack on your back, six days a week to make it to Canada before the snow hits. Someone with gear that you think would be uncomfortable is actually more comfortable than you most of the day and probably just as comfortable at night.

There are some techniques to help comfort at camp, it sounds like you're afraid of being cold or sleeping on lumps. You can avoid the cold part by sleeping under the trees, on dirt and away from water. Hopefully out of a canyon or low spot as well since cold air travels down hill at night. When you pick a spot for a tent, look for something that isn't hard as a rock or consider fluffing some duff like pine needles up for extra padding. Just be sure to leave it as you found it in the morning, impacted or not.

Know what conditions you'll encounter means you can tailor your gear. Some tarptents let you remove the bug netting or inner net entirely, so if you know it's too early or late in the season for bugs you can half the shelter weight. If it's late in the season and cold rain is unlikely, an umbrella and a windjacket can be really useful. If night time temperatures won't even touch freezing, why carry a 20 degree bag AND a down jacket AND some other insulation layers?

All the gear changes should come after you've figured all that out, otherwise you end up replacing things more often.

[Kerry Wilson]

Mike,

Your comments are certainly spot on. Over the last 45 years living in Oregon I have been caught short enough times to have spent plenty of miserable nights in the backcountry here in the Cascades and Coast ranges due to the unpredictability of the weather and so I hedge……that being said, I go to the wilderness to have a good time and nothing spoils it faster than being caught unprepared or not being able to get a comfortable nights rest and so again I hedge…

Although I am not making my next trip on the west side of Or. a lifetime habit of hedging the weather is hard to break so when I start leaving gear behind it certainly makes me squirm a bit and I can't take enuf whiskey to dull the pain of poorly selected gear or overworked muscles. Old dogs learn new tricks slooooooowly….

but

I think I am getting into the right frame of mind and into ballpark on the weight (my current weight budget is now showing just a tad over 31 lbs. for a 7 day trip) and more than anything probably need to hear from you experienced lightweight guys that you can really enjoy the wilderness without the "backup for the backup" that I am used to carrying.

I am working towards a PCT thru hike in the next couple years and so want to get my gear refined between now and then so I can reasonably predict my capabilities for such an endeavor.

Everyone here has been great and has good input and I appreciate all the perspectives being presented.
Kerry

[d k]

" If night time temperatures won't even touch freezing, why carry a 20 degree bag AND a down jacket AND some other insulation layers? "

Sadly, some of us have to do just that, or be cold (genetic predisposition, aka my two X chromosomes, with a heavy load of genes from my always-cold mom!).

P.S. But even then, I have been able to get down to a base weight of around 13 pounds easily, and I am still comfortable.

[Billy Ray]

"Over the last 45 years living in Oregon I have been caught short enough times to have spent plenty of miserable nights in the backcountry here in the Cascades and Coast ranges due to the unpredictability of the weather and so I hedge……"

Kerry,
your wording above reminds me of the saying that 'armies are always fighting the last war'… meaning they spend a ton of money and preparation for what happened and what went wrong in the last war… which makes them under prepared for the next war!!!!

I can imagine adding a piece of gear or two after each trip because of being uncomfortable in a particular, and perhaps rare, situation. At the end of a few years you could end up with a lot of 'what if' gear… and a lot of weight. If I packed my pack with everything I could possibly need for everything that could possibly go wrong, I would not be able to lift or carry my pack!!!!

The biggest key to going light?
It's NOT buying the lightest gear; it's leaving stuff at home that you are unlikely to need… and, perhaps, learning to accept less comfort in camp in exchange for more comfort on the trail..

Billy

[Kerry Wilson]

Billy Ray, that is spot on, and I am eliminating those "insurance policies", but its slow going, I am attached to all my sh&t, I just don't want to carry it anymore….

Three times in my life, the Cascades almost had me and all three times it was due to sudden and unforecast weather changes when I was a long way from a road. Tends to make one wary….

The hard thing is not falling for all the cool gadgetry that surrounds us, but I am committed to the concept and that's step one…..

Thanks for the feedback

[Billy Ray]

BTW Kerry, there are quite a lot of us 'old dogs' here at BPL that have indeed learned some new tricks…

and there are still some old tricks: some of us prefer our comforts on the trail as opposed to camp… I'm well into my 60's and still use a 3/4 length closed cell foam pad… a bit ruff the first night or two, but after getting used to it, it is comfey enough for me.

er… I don't mean to be critical or rude, but at 6ft and 250 lbs it could be that your greatest weight savings could be free and not involve gear at all… every pound on the waist is just as hard to pack up the mountain as a pound in the pack…

or maybe that's all muscle?

Billy

[Kerry Wilson]

er… I don't mean to be critical or rude, but at 6ft and 250 lbs it could be that your greatest weight savings could be free and not involve gear at all… every pound on the waist is just as hard to pack up the mountain as a pound in the pack…

You preachin to the choir Billy Ray….

[Billy Ray]

no preachin' intended Kerry… I fight the bulge too so I guess I'm talking to myself…

Billy

[Billy Ray]

Kerry,

Suggestion:
Come up with a detailed gear list for your typical PNW backpack. Weigh each and every item and post the items and the weights here on BPL.

Ask for comments from other PNW backpackers who are used to dealing with the changeable weather up in those parts. That may give you more confidence as to what can be left out of your pack.

Educational if nothing else.

Billy

[Kerry Wilson]

No harm, no foul……Its funny, I used to be 6'1" 225, now 6'0 250 I hope that's not the beginning of a trend or I'll have to get an inversion table and try to stretch back out…:0)

I've got my gear list pretty well put together, and really know what I canshould leave behind, its just kinda like leaving cookies on the plate, you know you don't need them, but man you want them……

Everyone's input has been very helpful and I appreciate it.

Kerry

[d k]

I second the recommendation that you post a gear list for members to critique; I think it could be very helpful for you.

And my own take is that it is possible to be quite comfortable in camp (AND prepared for possible bad-weather scenarios) without having to carry a ton of weight, as long as you pick the right equipment for yourself – and leave behind things that are not as essential for comfort as you may think. I'm your age, too, so I am not speaking from the perspective of a young, tough hiker.

[Roger Caffin]

A DRY weight of 700 g or 25 oz per day for food is about what you need to avoid starving, losing lots of weight yourself, or even getting fatter.

Cheers

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