Lightweight Affordable Tarps

Lawson. I agree with Dave U's comments in this thread. What don't you agree with?

I think you're a bit too sensitive and cranky in your post.

Would the Tyvek tarps have to be white?

Why hasn't this been done before? Material has been around long enough. Must be no demand.

Get off the computer and spend some time with your family. All the characters will be here when you get back.

Bob. I think its time you read the forums. I HAD A MEDICAL EMERGENCY….I didn't go silent. People that sent me emails inquiring about their orders heard back and were up to speed. I had a note on my website.. Etc.. Dave U and another Dave where the only ones complaining. Yet they weren't waiting on orders as they have never ordered anything from me or ever done business with me. Same thing on this forum. No experience, but an expert on the subject… When it comes to my customer service, its one thing I take very seriously. And to hear someone say I have bad customer service that has never done business with me is nothing more than slander..

I had made an all 1443r tyvek double bivy for my wife and i to use. I found it tore and frayed somewhat easily and i didn't sew it, but used tyvek tape which works really well for this and most other tyvek materials. After about two or three times of use with my wife, wherein she wasn't as careful with it as i was (and she would sit up fast or what not stretching the material), it showed clear degradation. It wasn't the bottom, i was still using 'polycryo' underneath (and the bivy often on top of our pads)–damage occurred where it was getting stretched.

It just doesn't have much strength and durability compared to silnylon. On average and as a trend, a well and even decently made silnylon tarp should last much, much longer and more functionally than the "kite" tyvek.

What i would be personally interested in is hybrids of polycro and the super light nylons like Titanium Goats "nobel" (because it's relatively inexpensive). 30D silnylon will be more durable longer term, but combining polycryo with a very light nylon (if it's feasible, i haven't tried it yet myself) would create a more double walled design further decreasing condensation, decreasing true misting, increasing insulation a little all at a weight slightly under silnylon (provided you use a lighter/thinner polycryo).

But, the problem with this design is one that would be a problem with the kite tyvek as well (but the tyvek has more problems over all), if anything fell on it from above, it would easily pierce the polycryo if that was on top (which during rain, you would want the polycryo on top).

Again, i'm not sure it would be really feasible. My thought is that if you rolled/folded the nylon over the polycryo a few times or so at the edges, and then sewed the edges, it might hold the polycryo in ok, but then again it might require tape or adhesive. If that did work, the tightly woven nylon would provide the load bearing strength, and the polycryo the waterproofness (and again the double walled benefits of the combo). If i ever get around to this project, will let people know how it goes.

In reality though, a 30D silnylon tarp would be cheaper and more durable than this option, so in some ways more efficient and better.

"Bob. I think its time you read the forums. I HAD A MEDICAL EMERGENCY….I didn't go silent."

Lawson, I do read the forums. I believe that you had a family emergency, not your own medical emergency. That is by the way you described it.

I wonder, then, why somebody came to this forum asking about your company.

That's one reason why some customers are reluctant to do business with a one-person company. If some family emergency comes up, who is operating the company in the interim?

–B.G.–

"I am not being sensitive. I am just annoyed that Dave U and Bob always have a comment on everything. I hope these guys are getting paid to post on here as they are "experts" on every subject.. I guess I just hate people that "know it all".. Especially when they have no experience in the matter.."

Lawson, the only thing that is worse are the people that don't seem to know anything.

Some of us have been down this road before with kite-type Tyvek 1443R and a host of other materials.

–B.G.–

Lawson,

I agree with you on many levels, when I scroll through a post, a see a name "_______" insert here; I just keep scrolling, too much negativity. Id rather read opinions by many, not 10,000 opinions by the same person, it gets old…..

In my opinion I would never buy a tyvek tarp, or recommend one, too close in weight and price to silnylon, and it doesn't stretch. People used to make shelters out of tyvek, they don't exist anymore for a reason. If I were you I would make an affordable bathtub floor, less competition and more appropriate for the function of use.

Just because a kite website sells the material, doesn't make it "Kite Type". Kite websites sell Cuben Fiber and Silnylon. Maybe we should start calling these kite materials….

The smarter I get, the less I know…

I don't see the reason for personal attacks. Lawson has always seemed reasonable to me.

My question is does a breathable tarp have less condensation?

It seems like you want breathable for clothes, because you sweat so water has to breath out.

For tarp, it serves no purpose?

If there was a little condensation under tarp, it would just evaporate away unless it was colder than dew point, which would be the same for Tyvek and sil. But it's complicated so non intuitive.

Has anyone tried identical tarps except one is sil, one Tyvek, and determined condensation is less in Tyvek?

"Just because a kite website sells the material, doesn't make it "Kite Type". "

This is true. However, when a kitemaking web site sells me a product called Tyvek 1443R, then I assume that is exactly what it is that they shipped to me. I didn't find that material to be very impressive for anything other than for kites.

–B.G.–

deleted

"Lawson,

I agree with you on many levels, when I scroll through a post, a see a name "_______" insert here; I just keep scrolling, too much negativity. Id rather read opinions by many, not 10,000 opinions by the same person, it gets old…..

In my opinion I would never buy a tyvek tarp, or recommend one, too close in weight and price to silnylon, and it doesn't stretch. People used to make shelters out of tyvek, they don't exist anymore for a reason. If I were you I would make an affordable bathtub floor, less competition and more appropriate for the function of use."

THIS!! You could even offer them in a choice of materials.

Keep on keepin on, I have always been happy with my transactions with lawson outdoor

Jeff

"My question is does a breathable tarp have less condensation?"

I don't know exactly how you use a tarp, but I use one mostly for rain and wind protection, and it stays 18-36 inches away from my body so that some air can circulate. As a result, there should not be much of any condensation, whether breathable or not. If you were really closing the thing up against outside air, then the breathability would become more of a factor. You would probably call it something besides a simple tarp. About the only time that I get any condensation problem is with a sealed tent that is zipped up tightly.

–B.G.–

Lawson, if you want to persuade people, you don't want to come off as aggressive. All of the long diatribes, and not one person on BPL is going to buy a Tyvek tarp.

If you want to produce something people will buy, make 30d silnylon tarps that measure 6' 6" wide and 8' 6" long. That's a dimension nobody else has covered (except for Sea To Summit and they're too expensive, 15d PU coated) and that's the perfect size for 1 person.

My tarp stays 18 to 36 inches away from my body, and sometimes there's condensation.

In particular, if it's somewhat humid, and then it cools down (below the dew point) then dew condenses on any surface. Sometimes there's water vapor from my breath that condenses, depending on how much ventilation there is.

As has been discussed many times before : )

I don't really have a good idea whether breathable fabric would be better.

"I don't really have a good idea whether breathable fabric would be better."

Jerry, I don't believe that most fabrics will breathe unless you get an inside pressure to force air movement to the outside. With a more or less open tarp, I don't think that you will get any differential pressure, so I don't see how breathability will do anything for you.

–B.G.–

"Tyvek is 1.85 oz/yd"

Monte, this number applies to only one type of Tyvek. There are several different types. Some vendors just call it Tyvek and stop right there. If one type is all they have, then adding numbers onto it will just narrow its appeal.

–B.G.–

That's my logic too.

You need a temperature gradient from inside to outside or it won't breath.

But maybe there's some other characterisitic of Tyvek that reduces condensation.

It would be interesting to get actual experience, but if you took Tyvek on one trip and there was no condensation, and sil on another and there was, you wouldn't know whether it was Tyvek/sil, or just different conditions

Since its apparent now that I am going to have an uphill battle with this material due to the perception of the tyvek I am officially re-naming it.. Since its white and it protects you from the elements. I am now calling it Cloud Tex.

> You need a temperature gradient from inside to outside or it won't breath.

Actually, what you need is a humidity gradient. Pressure does not matter, and temperature is not very significant in comparison. But if there is 100% rH inside and 50% rH outside, water molecules will diffuse through.

Mind you, if it is an open-ended tarp, I don't think the 'breathability' of the fabric matters at all.

Cheers

"if it is an open-ended tarp, I don't think the 'breathability' of the fabric matters at all"

That's what makes sense to me

"Actually, what you need is a humidity gradient."

If there was condensation on the inside of the tarp would that be 100% humidity? Then there'de be a humidity gradient across tarp? But I suppose there'de be condensation on the outside too…

If there was a temperature gradient there'de also be a humidity gradient because warmer air can hold more water, so they're related

You'de have to do a careful experiment. Two tarps, one breathable. With similar people in them. Out on a number of nights with various amounts of condensation. Some nights no condensation on either, probably some nights condensation on both, but maybe you'de see a difference. There might be a difference between sil and cuben.

deleted

No.

It's white in visible light so it will be cooler if it's in sunlight.

In IR, it's the same reflective as black fabric.

At least according to my measurements.

You have to have, like, a space blanket. But like someone said, if you have a reflective material tarp it's dark inside which is undesireable in most cases.

Maybe I should of started the forum off with some specs and a photo of one of the tarps rather than asking for general feedback. Here is my 2 person "Fastpacker" model. Same dimensions as the cuben fiber one I use to manufacture. 9'2" Ridgeline, 9' wide at front, 7' wide at rear. It is 100% bonded which I find really helps increase the durability of the material.. In Cloud Tex this tarp weighs 11.3oz.. And was going to be a $100 model. If you compare this to silnylon tarps of equal size the weight is usually more in the range of 14-16oz and costs $160+. So this tarp would save you money and weight….

In the reflective cuben I was using, this tarp model weighed 7.9oz and cost $275.

Photo was taken with cell phone so its not really that good…

What are the packed dimensions of this Fastpacker model?