Apr 30, 2014 at 6:41 pm #1316294
I am wondering. Is there any demand for lightweight and affordable tarps? I have been thinking of manufacturing my tarp designs using a material I am calling Cloud Tex. Which is just like Tyvek 1443R.. Weight would be less than silnylon. Price would be less too… My thinking is not everyone wants to pay $150-$325 for silnylon or cuben fiber tarp.. So there might be some demand for a lightweight tarp that costs $75-$125 depending on size and model. As most other affordable tarps are heavy. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and since this is a gear deals forum, I will offer BPL members a deal on them if and when they come out..
Maybe I should of started the forum off with some specs and a photo of one of the tarps rather than asking for general feedback. Here is my 2 person "Fastpacker" model. Same dimensions as the cuben fiber one I use to manufacture. 9'2" Ridgeline, 9' wide at front, 7' wide at rear. It is 100% bonded which I find really helps increase the durability of the material.. In Cloud Tex this tarp weighs 11.3oz.. And was going to be a $100 model. If you compare this to silnylon tarps of equal size the weight is usually more in the range of 14-16oz and costs $160+. So this tarp would save you money and weight….May 1, 2014 at 9:27 am #2098208
David MasonBPL Member
Lawson, any idea on what the waterproof rating is on the 1443R Tyvek material? I've seen a few threads regarding Tyvek and I don't believe I've ever read something conclusive, probably due to the fact that there are many different types of tyvek/house wrap material floating around out there.
I think $75-$125 may be reasonable for a full-featured tyvek tarp. There are vendors where you can buy 8×10' flat sil tarps for $75-$90, and less for smaller a-sym sil tarps. That being said, tyvek may have less stretch, more durability, less weight, and many other great selling points.
Good luck and I'll certainly be watching with interest :)May 1, 2014 at 9:35 am #2098211
You can buy new 8×10 silnylon tarps for under $125. 5×8 versions in the $50 to $70 range.
I see no benefit to Tyvek over silnylon so if they cost a similar amount.May 1, 2014 at 9:52 am #2098217
James MarcoBPL Member
@jamesdmarcoLocale: Finger Lakes
I agree. Anything that costs over $100 I'll be looking for silnylon, not tyvek.
Here are some medium duty silnylon ones:http://www.backcountrygear.com/equinox-ultralite-tarp.html#.U2J5taLjRI0
The 8×10 goes about 14oz and costs $110.
Tarps are really easy to sew. I have made many ranging from 7×8 to 14×18. All cost less than $100.May 1, 2014 at 10:30 am #2098227
@hjuan99Locale: Mountain West
Borah gear also has sub $100 tarps that are better quality than equinox.May 1, 2014 at 11:39 am #2098251
I learned along time ago, you usually get what you pay for….. Use the Equinox tarp as an example. The 8×10 you mentioned for $110 has grommets. I use to sell that tarp and can say first hand. Silnylon and grommets do not go well together.. Most high quality silnylon tarps are more in the range of $150-$175+.. The cheaper ones are usually built with inferior materials and poor craftsmanship.. So lets compare apples to apples here..
All that said, Tyvek does offer some advantages over Silnylon so were not just talking lower cost..
First Tyvek is lighter at 1.25oz.. I know you can find Silnylon that weighs the same but the majority of the good stuff weighs closer to 1.5oz+. So using an 8×10 tarp as a comparison the Tyvek version would weigh 11.11oz while the Silnylon version would weigh 13.33oz.. Now this is only material but there is still a 2.22oz (20%) difference… I have found that this weight difference holds up even with a finished product.. My silnylon tarps are about 20% heavier than my Tyvek tarps.. Get them both wet and the silnylon one is even heavier…
Then there is the stretch/sag factor. Silnylon is known for this.. Especially when wet.. Tyvek doesn't have much.. Basically the perfect amount. So with a Tyvek tarp there really is no reason to ever re-tension your tarp like you have to do with a Sil-nylon one..
Last but not least, Tyvek is breathable so condensation on the bottom of the tarp is not much of a issue. So no more waking up with the inside of your tarp raining down on you and your expensive down bag..
Silnylon has the advantage of durability and tear resistance over Tyvek, but its also heavier, has more sag, and is prone to condensation… Waterproof-ness seems to be about the same in the long term. With really good quality silnylon being more water-resistant at first..May 1, 2014 at 11:50 am #2098256
Non grommet tarps:
-Integral Designs Siltarp 2, 8 x 10, $120.
-MLD Grace, 9 x (7,5), $120.
-Oware flat tarps: 6×10, $89. 10×10, $127.
Condensation under a tarp has rarely been an issue with silnylon.
You may be able to sell the Tyvek tarps if you are 50 to 75% of the cost of a silnylon tarp (as above). Personally, any weight savings with tyvek is matched by poorer hydrostatic head.
Sun shade maybe?May 1, 2014 at 1:00 pm #2098282
USA Duane HallBPL Member
@hikerduaneLocale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Go get em Lawson. I hate weight gain and saggy. How waterproof though?
DuaneMay 1, 2014 at 1:04 pm #2098285
Dave.. There is no doubt in my mind you are not interested in a Tyvek tarp. But I have a feeling other people might be…
Maybe someone that doesn't like silnylon or maybe someone that doesn't want to spend $120 on a solo tarp. No where did I ever say that these tarps would be the same price as silnylon tarps.. Price range is basically $75-$125. With the $75 model being a solo tarp and the $125 model being a huge 10'x12' model.
The same size silnylon tarp from Integral Designs would be $185, from Mountain Laurel Designs would be over $205, and from Granite Gear would be $219..
All that said, what tyvek tarp/tent have you used? What version of Tyvek material did it use?May 1, 2014 at 1:20 pm #2098287
Duane, In my experience the 1443r Tyvek is equal to most silnylons in terms of water-resistance over the long run. It tests out at 850.. But it test at this number forever.. Alot of silnylons test higher when new but over time they test much lower.. Its the reason you see people re-waterproofing their silnylons.. You have to remember MOST silnylon is not designed for shelter use. Its designed for parachute use. Its the reason for the low water-resistance and high stretch…
That said, I think Tyvek is like Cuben Fiber in respect to water proofness. Cuben Fiber CT2K.08 which is the most common tarp material used only tested out at something like 540 but in real world conditions its far more waterproof than this number. Its the same with Tyvek.. The thing is, Tyvek checks alot of boxes.. Lightweight, Low Stretch, Breathable, Pretty Darn Water-Resistant, Doesn't absorb moisture, and is very affordable..
I built a tyvek tarp about 5 years ago that I still use to this day and I think its a great tarp material..May 1, 2014 at 1:23 pm #2098289
David OlsenBPL Member
@bivysack-com-2Locale: Channeled Scablands
deletedMay 1, 2014 at 1:24 pm #2098291
Experience: Used a Sublite. The fabric isn't waterproof and that is a specialized shelter for relatively dry climates.
An Integral Designs 5×8 tarp is $70 in silnylon for a solo model (as mentioned above). Also, GG tarps are regularly on sale. Right now you can buy an 8×10 for a little over $100. Free shipping. Did you want to comment on Oware, who produce tarps under your price point?
Curious about all of these other people interested in a Tyvek tarp? What is the purpose of a Tyvek tarp? Sun shade? Wind shelter (if it is breathable, is it good in the wind?)
Really though, an 8×10 Tyvek tarp would cost $10 to make. Maybe $15.May 1, 2014 at 1:36 pm #2098300
I have an Equinox flat tarp that has its grommets set in reinforcing, so they have not had any problem in over twenty years now.
Personally, I find Tyvek to be noisy. Using it as a ground sheet is OK, but using it overhead in wind is too noisy.
–B.G.–May 1, 2014 at 3:26 pm #2098329
Ryan SmithBPL Member
Tyvek 1443R soft structure is not the same as the noisy Tyvek 1085d. It is not noisy at all.
RyanMay 1, 2014 at 4:05 pm #2098340
"Tyvek 1443R soft structure is not the same as the noisy Tyvek 1085d. It is not noisy at all."
We are not discussing Tyvek 1085d. Tyvek 1443R was the subject.
–B.G.–May 1, 2014 at 5:10 pm #2098363
Lawson, I guess I will have to send this Tyvek 1443R back to the vendor and inform them that it can't possibly be Tyvek 1443R, because you said so.
The only vendor that seems to be complaining is in this one thread.
–B.G.–May 1, 2014 at 5:46 pm #2098379
Nathan MeyersonBPL Member
@nathanmeyersonLocale: Pacific Northwest
If the tyvek is functionally acceptable in comparison to silnylon, weighs and costs less. This should be a no brainer. (yes, people will buy it)
The question is whether Tyvek IS functionally comparable to silnylon.
The burden of proof is on the producer.
Lawson, it sounds like you're letting yourself be defeated by naysayers.
If you say "Any feedback would be greatly appreciated."
Don't get upset when you get feedback.
Drop the personal attacks, we came here for DEALS.
The market is big enough for competition, if it ain't we'll find new jobs. Life goes on..May 1, 2014 at 5:48 pm #2098380
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Hi all combatants
Yes, this thread has been reported.
However, I am not going to censor it (yet) as there are some interesting factoids to be found in places – mixed in with a small number of ad hominum attacks. The latter are deprecated, as you know.
Seems to me that in a country with the population of the USA, there should be room for a few manufacturers of similar products. How about we let the customers decide what they want to buy? Brief reviews based on actual FIELD experience would be useful too.
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking LightMay 1, 2014 at 6:48 pm #2098399
Ryan SmithBPL Member
"We are not discussing Tyvek 1085d. Tyvek 1443R was the subject."
If your Tyvek is noisy, you aren't discussing 1443R. The rest of us are.
RyanMay 1, 2014 at 6:56 pm #2098405
Lawson, you asked if anyone would want a Tyvek tarp. You received your feedback and I am sorry it isn't what you wanted to hear. Due diligence is key here – you choose to ignore the fact that you can get silnylon tarps below the price point that you mention in the OP. If you don't want to hear feedback on manufacturing a Tyvek tarp, then just do it and market it. I don't think it will take long to determine if it is a success or failure. What is interesting to me is that the feedback you received was nicely presented and yet you chose to attack. Lovely.
With respect to my membership, I was first a member for 6 – 7 years but elected not to renew the membership because I no longer needed to read the articles. That was something like 2 years ago. But I sure did buy some gear from the gear shop so I suspect I supported the site that way. Did you? I have been around for a while and seen 'gear' manufacturers like you come and go. Based on your resounding success in customer service (how many threads have we read about zero contact with clients?), I suspect you may eventually fall to the latter.
What I see here is someone who only wants to hear from those that will definitely buy something from you. In effect, you have a membership to sell your product. This is fine by me. Who am I to criticize motive?
By the way, I have never seen a current or potential gear manufacturer respond to questions or feedback the way you do. It is really fascinating to the point of being a case study of how not to react. I doubt that Dave Olsen who adds a tremendous amount of knowledge to these forums (not to mention he makes seriously high quality, reasonably priced tarps and mids) could give two hoots about whether you manufacture a Tyvek tarp. I could be wrong but I really don't see you as competition.May 1, 2014 at 7:00 pm #2098408
As far as looking for feedback. Your right, I am looking for feedback from people who have used 1443R before or are interested in buying one of these tarps.. I think it goes without saying, I am not looking for negative feedback from people like you who say it wont work but have no experience at all using it. I mean what value do your comments add? For all I know you work for David Olsen and got a free silnylon tarp for posting…
Rather than send you a private message I am going to say this here loud and clear.. If you say one more lie about my business having bad customer service I am going to sue you…. You have never purchased a single product from me and you have no clue about my customer service..
My wife was pregnant with our first baby. Towards the beginning of April my wife had a medical condition where she was in and out of the hospital. This went on for over a week.. As a result, they had to induce labor. Once my baby girl was born, she had to be in NICU for a week. So I got behind on my orders by about two weeks.. Well a customer started a forum asking if I was on vacation as they were still waiting on their order.. Well David U took it upon himself to trash me on the forum even though he had no clue that I had a notice on my website, that I was replying to customers who sent emails, and that all orders had been shipped out by the time the original post was made. But Dave U had no clue of this, and still trashed me and my reputation, just because he had to tell people his opinion on the matter…May 1, 2014 at 7:09 pm #2098415
"Your right, I am looking for feedback from people who have used 1443R before or are interested in buying one of these tarps."
I have used Tyvek 1443R that was sold as kite material, and I think it is good for that purpose.
I have purchased Equinox silnylon tarps, and all of them have suited me fine.
–B.G.–May 1, 2014 at 7:15 pm #2098418
"For all I know you work for David Olsen and got a free silnylon tarp for posting…"
Seriously? I mean holy delusions, Batman.
Oh and I never said it wouldn't work – where did you see that posted?
You also said,"Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Oh and since this is a gear deals forum, I will offer BPL members a deal on them if and when they come out.."
Let me get this straight: Ask for feedback (Tyvek is not waterproof and Silnylon tarps are not expensive). Get feedback. Ignore feedback by pursuing personal attacks. Claim there is a silnylon conspiracy.
Sounds like you have made up your mind. Go for it and make them. Hope you sell thousands.May 1, 2014 at 7:28 pm #2098420
Good luck.May 1, 2014 at 7:35 pm #2098423
"If you say one more lie about my business having bad customer service I am going to sue you"
Lawson, a few days ago there was a bit of discussion. People had placed orders with you and then you went silent for too long, so they came here to inquire.
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