Return dilemma

"So, am i asking too much or do i have a valid case for a return?"

Read REI's return policy. You can follow it to a "T"

If you are asking because it might be an ethical or moral dilemma, then only you can answer the question.

20 years? Seems like one of those cases of unreasonable return

But, if it's consistent with their rules, I suppose it's okay

It would be interesting to see what they say with their new 1 year return policy

Nylon PU coated stuff isn't supposed to last that long, even if it's well made. The only materials that will last that long are canvas and wool.

Please do not return it.

You will become one of those stories we see here all the time about how something was returned 20 years later (for whatever reason).

Then again, given the new garage sale pricing model that my local REI is using, they will put it in the garage sale for 20% off the current list price and expect someone to buy it and be offended if someone comments about the high price, given the condition and age. I guess they are just trying to recoup the loss on your bivy and other returns like it.

I'm not sure if having the nerve to return a 20 year old bivy should be praised or condemned.

Make some winter gaiters out of the fabric.

I bought a steak at Safeway 5 weeks ago and kept it in the refrigerator. I took it out for dinner yesterday and it was all green and fuzzy. Should I return it for a refund?

That might sound sarcastic and I DON'T mean it that way. Kudos to you for asking. Here's another example:

I bought a bag of flour at Safeway 5 weeks ago and put it in the panty. I was about to make pancakes this morning and it had a rancid smell to it. Should I return it for a refund?

You expect flour to last many months. If it doesn't last like all the other flour you've ever bought, you are right to wonder why and to ask for a refund. Maybe they didn't rotate their stock and it was a year old when you got. Maybe there was a manufacturing or blending issue and it wasn't any good the day you bought it.

But a reasonable person doesn't expect raw meat to last for a month. That said, a clueless person (a vegetarian?), through lack of experience, might be surprised.

I know things about the aging of fabrics in 2014 that I didn't know in 1976. Because I've now owned and used cotton, nylon, polypro, polyester, leather, and their various coatings for many decades. I'm still using uncoated nylon gear from 35 years ago (Yeah!, Patagonia Baggie shorts!) But all my urethane-coated nylon fabrics from 20, 25, 30, or 35 years ago is delaminating. So I've learned that there is a lifetime to that material. In a few cases, I recoat it myself. Other times I repurpose to a non-waterproof use. Or I toss it or use it as un-coated fabric for MYOG projects.

Yes, you're probably within your rights to return it, by the letter of their policy at the time you purchased it.

I don't see it as REI's fault that they couldn't predict the lifespan of fabrics that had only existed for 5-10 years at the time.

I wouldn't return it myself.

If we want manufacturers to use the most modern fabrics when they've had no chance to field test them for decades, perhaps we have to accept an unknown useful life and roll those dice as we see fit.

del

You bought it, its yr call

Ur following the rules and their stated policy

Only u and them can decide if you got fair use out of something used 8 times

The worst try can say is no

And if they do take care of you, or if gore does with their "lifetime" warranty … Then youll happily shop there again and tell everyone rlse about it

its not like you didnt like the color … The seam tape is coming apart

Intraweb "morality" is highly entertaining … If we followed it on BPL we would never buy anything that wasnt cottage, never mind stuff made in china

;)

Clearly your call and the clerk at REI.
It is however because of these kind of cases that REI and other companies have changed their return policies. Hey, we all do all kinds of rationalizing on a daily basis and I am sure you can come up with a very reasonable story to tell yourself and make this return perfectly legitimate :)

Edited because auto correct blows.

Policy or not- it's 20 years old. I think it's obnoxious to want to return an item after 20 years because it now has a flaw that is probably age related – lots of things see slow damage after exposure to air, UV, etc and that should be expected. It's these type of returns that prompted REI to change their generous policy.

But…its 20 years old and things don’t last forever.

So, am i asking too much or do i have a valid case for a return?

You are asking too much. I would expect any similar item to be degraded after all this time.

Maybe try contacting the manufacturer and see what it would take to have it repaired? If not, maybe repair it yourself or just seam seal it?

That's it; it's your call. REI will probably honor their guarantee.

Whether is it right or wrong for you to exercise the warranty is for you to decide, not us.

Besides there are more important issues to discuss here — such as stealing condiments from fast food joints :)

I think the saddest thing is that the bivy wasn't worn out from all the use it could have experienced in 20 years.

I would not attempt a return, nor expect to get one.

This is a return "dilemma"? REALLY??

After 20 years, If you have the original receipt, let your conscience be your guide.
I would not.

But I would use the material to make many other items

del

If you had actually used it, it would not have lasted this long. I'd say you got more than your money's worth. PU coatings are good for no more than 10 years. I had a TNF pack fail in around 8. I was so much younger then, but it killed me. TNF pretty much laughed at me and refused my warranty return. Sierra Trading Post, where I purchased it, made me whole, but all these years later, I know I got a really good run out of that WP coating. five years is probably a good run. Like David said, repurpose it, or pass it on. You can't expect to buy anything (almost anything) and closet it for decades to be ready and useful as your whims may dictate. But I"m not saying you "can't" return it. You could try that to.

Not to stir the pot further. . . well, okay, I will:

What if a company offered a "Truly lifetime jacket" and they explicitly said if the zipper breaks, it gets worn through, so dirty as to be uncleanable, torn through normal or abnormal use, or chewed up by your dog, they would replace it?

If it is functionally a $200 jacket, what would you pay for such an arrangement?

What would they have to sell such a item and service plan for?

And would those prices have any overlap? They might need to charge $1000, but there probably isn't enough market at that price point.

US cell phone plans work sometimes like that. Every 24 months (sometimes less), you get a new phone for "free" which is, of course built into your monthly charge. But this would be with a single, up-front charge.

At age 90 and with Jeanne Calment signed a deal to sell her former apartment to a lawyer André-François Raffray, on a contingency contract, he agreeing to pay her a monthly sum of 2,500 francs until she died. She lived another 33 years, collecting over twice the apartment's value in such payments and outliving the lawyer (whose heir paid for the last two years).

I'm trying to think of things that have lasted a long time. We still (occasionally) use my grandmother's 1906 Singer sewing machine. My uncle's Longines watch from 1946 still keeps good time. Sometimes I fly in 60- and 70-year-old airplanes. Of my own clothing, the oldest still in use is from the late 1970's I have some ties from dead relatives from somewhat earlier. I've got cameras and slide rules that still work just fine after 50, 60 and 70 years. There's some furniture in the family that is over 200 years old. But all the Gore-tex in current use is from the last 15 years.

Back in the old days, Gore-tex garments would get contaminated and then would have to be cleaned before washing to restore the waterproofness. So, we were using denatured alcohol and all sorts of stuff like that to act as a solvent on the contaminants. Well, it worked, up to a point. Later on, delamination became an even worse problem, and it showed up the most in the areas that had been decontaminated earlier.

I don't know whether these coatings and membranes just naturally degrade over time, or whether some of our treatments cause them to degrade.

–B.G.–

What if a company offered a "Truly lifetime jacket" and they explicitly said if the zipper breaks, it gets worn through, so dirty as to be uncleanable, torn through normal or abnormal use, or chewed up by your dog, they would replace it?

What would they have to sell such a item and service plan for?

they would charge the same as any other jacket … and less than say dead bird and patagucci

Here at Outdoor Research, we are committed to developing truly functional solutions for Human Powered Adventure.
OR products are Designed By Adventure™ and from this, we deliver the hallmark of all Outdoor Research products – functional gear that works and lasts. By placing quality and function first, we can offer the finest guarantee in the industry for each and every product – OR’s Infinite Guarantee™. We believe so strongly in the quality of what we make that if, at anytime, our product fails to meet your needs, we are happy to exchange or return it. Because of this solid belief, our products are guaranteed forever and are designed with this in mind. Your total satisfaction in our product is our goal.
Though we doubt you’ll ever need to, if you ever have to use our Infinite Guarantee, see the Returns and Exchanges section above.

heres a proven story of a dog chewing up a jacket and the OR folks were good enough to replace

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2232975;

theyve had their infinite guarantee for many many many years, and havent went out of business … and i havent heard of it going away anytime soon

plenty of people buy OR because of that guarantee … its a competitive advantage … when you buy OR there is no risk other than losing some money shipping it back to them (if you can return it at the retailer)

MEC has the same guarantee for anything they sell …

now these companies can stop "abusers" as they have all the returns in the system … and of they see you returning a shietload of stuff they inform you your business is no longer welcome

If anything, L.L. Bean seems to be welcoming the customers REI might be willing to let go. Behind its store counters, the guarantee is written in giant text. And there are a few reasons why this may be better business for L.L. Bean. Many of its sales are mail order, so it's less convenient for customers to return stuff. And, Fuller says, the crazy return stories are great marketing for the company.

As a business practice, it's expensive. As advertising, it's cheap.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/09/25/223787129/what-happens-when-a-store-lets-customers-return-whatever-they-want

as ive said intraweb "morality" is quite fun … it seems that with some other brands its "OK" to send 10+ year old jackets back … and BPL thinks its great … but when its REI, everyone starts going crazy …

heres a recent credit given by dead bird to a BPLer on a 10+ year old jacket … no one telling him that he just increased the prices for everyone else, or that his action reduced the dead bird warranty for future customers

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86575

now about those "liberated" mcdickies condiments …

;)

"heres a proven story of a dog chewing up a jacket and the OR folks were good enough to replace"

I think that I would see about getting the dog replaced first.

–B.G.–

When OP bought this I am sure there was no documentation or conversation that the PU coating would last xx number of years. He used the item 8 times. It is not unreasonable for the average consumer to expect it to still be functional. Some of us are viewing this from our experience and perspective. It sounds like the item has not been abused. It is not worn out. It has a lifetime satisfaction guarantee. It is up to the retailer to decide whether or not to honor it.

I have lots of gear that is twice as old and still is in use and has seen considerably more time in the field. A couple years ago I send a 40+ year old backpack to Kelty to repair it because the material in a seam had frayed and separated. I expected to be charged for it, but they fixed it for free. It was their decision.

I have a 50 year old REI tent and would not submit it for a warranty replacement, even though it is technically probably covered.

I have several pieces of Briggs and Riley luggage that have a lifetime warranty to include damage from airlines. At the 10 year mark I sent it in for warranty repair and they completely rebuilt from the inside out. Two weeks ago I sent it in again because the airline destroyed the zipper. The luggage is expensive and the warranty is great.

They problem here, IMO, is the OP is asking the community what to do. How can someone not know what to do in these kinds of situations. We need to let our conscience guide is, and if we don't know what to do, then how do we make the truly important decisions in life?

Please ignore any grammar errors as I am typing on my iPhone and am not very good at it.