Return dilemma

One other thing…

I think people who grab extra condiments at fast food joints are thousands of times more in the wrong than someone who would return this bivy. Let your conscience guide your actions.

There is a third option. Send an email with a nice pic of it to an executive, and share your story with them.

And ask them simply to fix it, although taped seams are known to delaminate over time no matter what.

If your bivy were 25 years old, it probably wold have needed to be seam sealed anyway.

That way you get a clear answer without wasting gas!

Matt

I'm a fan of a capitalistic economy but not a so much a fan of a capitalistic society.

My mentor taught me that the definition of a good business deal is that the deal must BE GOOD for all parties involved and not a greed is good sort of capitalistic no holds barred deal.

Independently of your Consumer Bill of Rights that mistakenly claim the consumer is always right you must ask yourself – Is it a good business deal for all parties involved if I return an item after 20 years? The answer won't be hard to find.

We have a bunch of those extra condiments from fast food joints.

They look disgusting and I try to throw them away. I don't think they have expiration dates on them, but they probably have extra preservatives in them.

"The wife" is more of a cheapskate than me, at least in some things, and doesn't let me throw them away so I have to sneak : )

Let's say I've owned a pair of socks for 40 years. I wear them, at a minimum, once per week. Last week I ripped a hole in my sock and my big toe is now sticking through it.

Should I return it?

How about at the time of purchase, I paid more than the socks were worth because they offered the following guarantee:

Our Lifetime Guarantee
Unconditional lifetime guarantee—simply and without strings or conditions:

If our socks are not the most comfortable, durable and best fitting socks you have ever owned, return them for another pair, or your money back.

No strings. No conditions. For life.

When you are really serious about something you make it yourself.

Obviously this is Darn Tough Socks' guarantee. I don't own a pair as I prefer Wrights but in my opinion, you can't have it both ways. If you are going to market an item in this way, charge more than they are worth (imo) because you are offering a lifetime guarantee, I think it's a little disingenuous to cry foul when the customer expects you to honor it.

I don't know how the bivy was marketed but until recently, REI would have backed an item like that for life. Over the years, I've spent $100s more (collectively) on gear from REI because of their return policy.

Again, I personally would try to repair it myself or pay the manufacturer to repair it but I also understand why someone would feel compelled to return it.

How are you going to prove it was purchased at REI? I have a tent fhat is starting to delam and it was probably purchased at REI, but I am not even sure.

REI and similar stores are banking on the fact that its customers will feel angst about these returns. Sure, some will take full advantage of these types of policies while others will not, but isn't a morale question. They are banking on the fact that you will perceive it to be a morale question. Furthermore, REI is a corporation fronting as a co-op, it is not a person. You are not wronging an individual by taking your gear back. If they accept the return, then the transaction is agreed to by both parties, so who exactly is being impacted? Corporations base such policies on data, hence their need to change the policy because it was affecting their bottom line or some other metric that somebody's bonus is probably based upon.

I work for a large corporation that will remain unnamed. In an hyper competitive environment you have to do right by your customers. If that means taking back questionable returns, then heck yes, a business will do it and do it gladly to ensure that the customer has a good experience. The employees of the company should recognize this and be poised and empowered to ensure that the customer experience is a good one. The cost of a return is an inexpensive price to pay.

So, take back your bivy sack, your old smelly socks and whatever else you have! The clerk should give you your money back and then take you by the hand and show you a nicer, newer, ultralight, jewel-encrusted bobble you should replace it with.

Larry,

I'm pretty sure they have all my recent (decade, 15 years?) purchases accessible by my member number or phone number.

"How are you going to prove it was purchased at REI?"

I believe it's an REI brand bivy.

I get scoffed at every time I have made a return to REI. It does not bother me too much, but they always act shocked. I tell them something flat out did not work and they shrug and act like I am making that up. Probably because so many others do so. I tell them an item did not work for me in a satisfactory manner, and they tell me "OH really? I heard from Bob that these are great." Well, maybe they were great for Bob, but not for me. REI charges a premium for most of their products compared to the price you find them for elsewhere. I have never abused this policy. I can get 80% of cost of an item that is in good shape on the secondary market, so I find no great need to return things when I am simply done with them. But if I am not satisfied with an item for whatever reason, I do not hesitate to return them. REIs in the Austin area are still littered with 5-finger shoes that are used to within an inch of their life and returned because "they were uncomfortable" or some such nonsense. So I cannot completely blame the employees at REI for scoffing at me, I just know that they will going in and try to have a bit of thick skin about all of it.

"I'm pretty sure they have all my recent (decade, 15 years?) purchases accessible by my member number or phone number."

I wonder what kind of history they keep. I have been a member for 25+ years.

REI doesn't charge significantly more to cover their old lifetime warranty. Returning a 20 year old bivy even if it was never used is an abuse of their policy (the OP did ask). I have an couple of old Jansport external framed backpacks. One has a hole warn in it, and on the other the hip belt padding is permanently compressed. Both have lifetime warranties as far as I know. I have never considered sending them in, even though I would have a use for the larger one if it had a good hip belt.

I take issue with Eric Chan's comment:
"as ive said intraweb "morality" is quite fun … it seems that with some other brands its "OK" to send 10+ year old jackets back … and BPL thinks its great … but when its REI, everyone starts going crazy …

heres a recent credit given by dead bird to a BPLer on a 10+ year old jacket … no one telling him that he just increased the prices for everyone else, or that his action reduced the dead bird warranty for future customers

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86575"
======================

Eric-

First, you're comparing apples and oranges. The OP in the thread you linked to said he sent a 10 yr old jacket back to Arcterx to get it repaired. Not replaced. Not refunded. Arcteryx did choose to replace it, but that was their decision. The OP here wants his money back on a 20 year old item. A company has significantly less money into a repair than into a replacement or refund, I think we would agree?

Two, I can't speak for the others (or for you) but my morality remains the same regardless of the company. As just one example- I wear Darn Tough socks and can tell you absolutely that when I wear them out I do not take advantage of Darn Tough and ask them to send me another pair. I don't care what their guarantee is- I got my money's worth. I buy another pair. That's the right thing to do, in my opinion. Darn Tough isn't going to stay in business long if people buy socks once and then just return them for free socks every time they wear them out.

In my lifetime I've returned just one used item to a store. The store was REI, and it was on a jacket I had just purchased a month previous that the zipper failed on. But when I get what I consider to be reasonable life out of an item, I don't return them. I don't even consider it. I replace it, usually with the same brand, because they've earned my loyalty through the life I received on the first item.

The OP asked our opinion, and he got it. Bummer if that bugs you, but he did ask.

As with all "moral" issues, If you have to ask, then you already know the answer. We won't absolve you one way or the other.

I have a couple thoughts;
1. The OP asked for an opinion about an “issue”. Thus the opinions given can’t be argued- they are an opinion. Though discussion can happen, opinions are based on a feeling or a specific paradigm, not fact and should be viewed as such. I know most of us here think our opinions are fact.
2. We really don’t know the facts behind this- what, where, how. Like, was the Bivy stored in the garage attic in southern California/Arizona where temperatures can reach upwards of 150* most any summer day (all day) for years. Or was it stored in a climate controlled, humidity stable, vacuum environment. The garage attic would bake/destroy almost anything and the climate controlled setting would preserve things for much longer than their regular useful life. Or any number of other scenarios.
Without the facts, it all comes down to a gut feeling and when someone asks for my gut feeling, I give it the way I see it; altering the opinion as the facts come to light or change.

It is good to have these kinds of discussions to help us see that everyone might not have the same opinion as everyone else. You don’t have to value others opinions or even respect their opinion on a given topic, but everyone has the right to their opinion (no matter how ridicules some of your opinions are- and that is my opinion)

Tad

+1 to everything Tad wrote (except my opinions are fact, it's just everyone else who thinks theirs are that bug me).

Lifetime means lifetime. You did not abuse the product, nor do you want to return it for a frivolous reason such as not liking the color. The product has failed and the manufacturer should live up to the guaranty.

I returned a suitcase to Eagle Creek because the PU coating was degrading and a sticky mess, making it unusable. It was sold with a lifetime warranty. Eagle Creek said that the PRODUCT was past it's lifetime and they would not honor the warranty. The suitcase was very lightly used and looked it– no dirt, tears, fraying or other signs of heavy use or abuse.

I pointed out that every other manufacturer I had dealt with regarding a lifetime warranty had replaced the item with no hesitation. I asked to have the suitcase returned so I could initiate a claim with my state consumer protection office. I was promptly sent a new suitcase.

It is the frivolous returns that concern me. It is quite obvious when an item has seen heavy use and then returned due to color, fit, or rips and tears that are obviously beyond reasonable use.

"Lifetime means lifetime."

What lifetime?

If the product has failed, then it has past its lifetime.

–B.G.–

"If the product has failed, then it has past its lifetime."

Not true. I've failed more times than I like to admit, but I'm still kicking…..

Of course, me mum has tried to send me back numerous times. No luck so far. Something about not intended to be used in this fashion or something….

I have an REI goretex tent. The PU coating on the floor is well named. It is about 30 years old. Some day I will replace the floor with a silnylon fabric. You could do the same and seal the seams with liquid sealer. Should work well for a bivy and it would be lighter.

Doug your failing is just your opinion. Its a fact that you were a lemon from the beginning. Your poor mum, she wasn't given a good return policy!

When I fail, I keep telling my wife "at least my mom loves me" (poor lady).

Lifetime means lifetime of the product, how long you could reasonably expect a type of gear to last. I'm too young to have experienced the old school nylon pu stuff, but I was under the impression that 20 years of that stuff sitting in a closet was past the lifetime of the product regardless of how much use it got.

There are at least two kinds of lifetime warranties, the first is the "satisfaction guaranteed" lifetime warranty, and the second is the more traditional lifetime warranty "against defects in materials and workmanship". The first type would allow for return of the bivy (although I would not, personally). The second type would probably not allow for a return because the failure is more likely the result of the natural degradation of a perfectly fine material, rather than a defect in the material. I have never read REI's return policy, but my impression from reading BPL is that it is more of a lifetime satisfaction guaranty.

Long time ago, I had one of those lexan Nalgene's break when dropped. REI refused to take it back, even tho the bottle right in the store said lifetime guaranteed. They said I had worn it out. It was about 2 years old, but daily used.

As for the dead bird return

The person got a full credit …

The result is the same regardless of what the returner "asked" for… A 10+ year old jacket was fully refunded and then some

The effect on the company is the same … Theyre out the full price regardless whether its rei or dead bird

So in BPL theory dead bird will now need to raise prices or reduce their future warranty

Again internet morality is a funny thing …

Now how about those "chinese" windshirts or buying walmart goods

;)

From eric chan :
but when its REI, everyone starts going crazy

A) do you want to return a 20 year old jacket to XXXX ? Not my problem
B) do you want to return a 20 year old jacket to REI ?
Are you nuts ??? this is my problem , I am a member !!!

BTW, "REI does not charge significantly more…"
ask the owner of your local indipendent outdoor store if he thinks he is buying at the same price REI does.