BPL wants input on proposed forum code of conduct

[spelt with a t]

From the home page:

2.Nov.13 Please review our new draft statement of forum behavior guidelines and provide feedback by filing a support issue before November 15, 2013. MLIFE's can expect an email newsletter about this issue in the next few days.

From the link:

DRAFT STATEMENT OF FORUM GUIDELINES – NOVEMBER 1, 2013

This is a DRAFT. We will solicit feedback on this statement before adopting it as official policy. If you would like to contribute feedback, please do so before November 7, 2013. Lifetime Members can respond to the email survey sent on November 2. Other members, and the public at large, can submit feedback by filing a support issue at support.backpackinglight.com.

—

BackpackingLight.com forums are moderated. We are continuing to evolve this document as we gain more experience, face new challenges, and research time-tested principles of effective forum moderation.

Our vision for the forums is this: That every visitor, whether lurker or poster, will feel welcome and safe participating in a community where people respect and honor each other in spite of who they are, rather than because of who they are.

Here are some basic guidelines:

Be considerate.

Honor each other as human beings. If you have a pattern of dishonoring or disrespecting people because of who they are and what they do, rather than honoring them in spite of who they are and what they do, then you may have a hard time here.

Positive encouragement goes a lot further than negative criticism. Praise in public, criticize in private – directly with the offending party.

Don't gossip, defame, lie, make unsubstantiated claims, engage in libel or slander, or question motives.

Give people a break. Life is hard. Don't make it harder. These are recreational forums, after all. If backpackinglight.com is your life, then you have a problem.

Do not post profanity or vulgar material.

Do not conduct yourself in a way that intentionally causes distress, embarrassment, unwanted attention, or other discomfort to any other individual.

Do not post chain letters, spam, advertisements (except for commercial postings that are specifically allowed in selected forums), or other types of junk.

Do not deviate from the primary topic of the forum thread.

This list is not necessarily exhaustive. We reserve the right to prohibit any type of conduct that we feel may be harmful to any of our site visitors.

If you discover a post that you feel violates any of these guidelines, please click the little "flag" icon associated with the post, which reports it to the Forum Admins.

We appreciate formal complaints that are substantiated with references. Please send your complaints with a link to the offensive post(s) and/or the forum user's profile to our Community Moderator, Roger Caffin.

Consequences of violating these forum guidelines will result in one or more of the following, depending on whether or not the violation is a repeat offense:

Deletion of the violating post by a moderator, usually without warning or followup;

Marking the forum user as a spammer (which locks their account) – we do this only for spammers, not other types of bad behavior.

*Partially locking the user's account to prevent them from posting (temporary or permanent), with or without preserving their posts in the forums; a full refund of membership fees will be issued.

*Completely locking the user's account to prevent them logging in and accessing member services and privileges (temporary or permanent), with or without preserving their posts in the forums; a full refund of membership fees will be issued.

* Temporary bans will always occur in concert with a personal email explaining the reason for the ban. The user will usually be offered the opportunity to have the ban lifted if the conflict can be privately resolved between Forum Admins and the Forum User. Except in the most serious of circumstances, permanent bans will be made only when the user has been subjected previously to a temporary ban and is either unwilling or unable to resolve conflicts privately with Forum Admins, or the user's temporary ban has been lifted and the user continues to violate forum guidelines.

Edit to remove broken html

[Greg Mihalik]

"Completely locking the user's account to prevent them logging in and accessing member services and privileges (temporary or permanent), with or without preserving their posts in the forums; a full refund of membership fees will be issued.

Well, that should take care of any hard feelings of the 'MLife' folks.

[Curtis B.]

These guidelines are way too subjective. Guidelines can only address observable behavior. Nobody can clearly and accurately determine whether or not someone is intentionally causing distress. Many people here have poor social skills in real life (why else would someone subject themselves to 6 mos of solitary hiking?), and the Internet makes it worse. Some my even exhibit insensitive, uncaring behavior in real life. They aren't intentionally causing distress–they simply don't need validation from others. How will a mod know if something is "intentional"?

Similarly, how will mods know if someone is questioning motives if all you have to go on is observed behavior?

Conflict is a necessary part of our lives. Through conflict we learn and grow. There are countless research articles that show the negative consequences of outlawing conflict. Conflict isn't the issue-personal attacks are.

"Give people a break. Life is hard. Don't make it harder. These are recreational forums, after all."
I like this–but it really isn't a rule to be placed in the code of conduct, is it? It is more of a philosophy.

"If backpackinglight.com is your life, then you have a problem."

Hmmm. As a business owner trying to make a living from this community, why would you say something like this? It seems to me that you WANT backpackinglight.com to be their life. The more time they spend here, the more opportunity you have to add value/sell them something.

And why would the commentary be only via the support forum? Wouldn't you prefer a healthy debate (even if it were moderated) that would generate something everyone felt they could take ownership of, rather than create something only be exception that nobody will be happy with?

[spelt with a t]

And why would the commentary be only via the support forum? Wouldn't you prefer a healthy debate (even if it were moderated) that would generate something everyone felt they could take ownership of, rather than create something only be exception that nobody will be happy with?

Just to be clear, I just made the thread because I happened to check the home page and see the news item. I would not take for granted that anything said here would be taken into consideration as "official" feedback. I would highly recommend anyone posting thoughts here to also submit them via the support system. That way there is both a public record and an "official" one.

[Ken Thompson]

I read the rules and then Curtis' response to my wife.

She feels that Ryan is out of touch with reality.

I agree with Curtis again.

I feel my days are numbered here at BPL.

Which is accurate?

provide feedback by filing a support issue before November 15, 2013

If you would like to contribute feedback, please do so before November 7, 2013.

[Ken Thompson]

I am so furious with Ryan Jordan right now, that I had to write my own response to statement no. 5. If BPL is your life then you have a problem. That is one of most insensitive statements I have ever heard. It went right to Ken's heart.

8 years ago we left San Diego for a better life by moving to far Northern California. Little did he know that the majority of the people here prefer to sit on their butts drinking beer and watching t.v. and being morbidly obese. Even though we have the BIG trees, Humboldtians don't go in for exercise. What to do when you can't find a hiking partner? Go to the Internet. All of the friends that Ken has made for hiking and backpacking, he found through BPL. So as far as his hiking life goes, yes, BPL is his life.

Ryan you should be ashamed.

Renee Thompson

[Kattt]

I don't like the proposed code of conduct at all. It seems very subjective and posters may "disappear" without a good explanation of why this happened. I don't like it either when people get offensive but that call seems to be very subjective on this forum as well. If the moderator is in line with the vociferous majority then posts will be removed unfairly.
Threads do get out of control; the same two or three people derail every reasonable discussion with their own agenda, trying to silence the others.
Mostly the BPL community has been able to rein in the extremes and still get along. All we need is for the ones that push buttons to be banned and then we can just all hold hands in ignorance and bliss, proud to be inclusive and open minded, excepts toward those we disagree with.
As painful as some discussions get, particularly in Chaff, I say leave it be.

[David Ure]

Well said, Renee.

[Roger Caffin]

All of which is why the DRAFT was posted for comment!

To address just one crucial point though:
NO action would be taken without private discussion with the person concerned. Maybe that was not made clear: fair comment. Who ever gets everything right in th first draft?

Cheers

[spelt with a t]

That every visitor, whether lurker or poster, will feel welcome and safe participating in a community where people respect and honor each other in spite of who they are, rather than because of who they are.

This is Dilbert-esque mumbojumbo. Maybe I'll have more detailed critique later (maybe not), but that just had to be said.

[Ken Thompson]

Why these things are never posted in the forums is beyond me. Especially with the amount of folks who say the are set up to get the e mails and don't

"Dear BPL Lifetime Member,

Please take a few minutes to review and respond to the following survey about our forums. We are in the process of reviewing forum guidelines, forum moderation practices, and forum features.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/9FDTDQ5

This survey will remain open until November 15, 2013.

Best Regards,
Ryan Jordan
Founder / Publisher
Backpacking Light"

I encourage everyone to take the few minutes and respond.

[Ken Thompson]

There is not enough room in the comment box. I had this posted in Chaff. Since many of you don't dare go there I figure that this is on topic for this thread. Since the survey discusses negative comments. I'm certainly not the only one who has issues with the ways things are here…

I deleted this earlier to clean up the edits so that you can't tell who said what. I received most of these comments after RJ's end of year letter last year. That is why some of the comments seem dated. Though still so relevant. If you recognize your words and don't want them posted I'll edit them out.

I'm getting a kick out of your MLIFE forum bumps Ken. I feel they're falling upon deaf ears and closed eyes on the staff end. Seriously, where's the content? Participation? Material? They're dropping the ball and they don't want people to vocalize their frustrations. Pfffff.

************

I think Ryan will announce either the demise of BPL in a few months or once again another announcement of "change". I just don't see them caring much on their end, at least not enough to actually do anything and uphold their end of the deal.

Ahhhh, BPL.

*****************

You hit the nail on the head and I share your frustrations. Keep poking that stick into the side of the dying horse that is BPL, maybe someone will listen. It is a bit sad that Ryan hasn't made a concerted effort, as far as I can tell, to mobilize his staff and individuals within the community here to put into action all that he laid out almost a year ago now.

The GGG has to be the most underappreciated thing going on within BPL, the staff refuses to acknowledge its existence. That is unfortunate. One thing is for certain, BPL sustains itself, the forums, contribution, beta, user feedback, etc… the necessity for a regularly contributing staff of "experts" is diminishing. They need to rethink and cast a real vision for what they/we want BPL to be, not just knee jerk reactions to disappointed members, otherwise it will just be a place to catch a few glimpses of quality information amongst a sea of junk.

********************

I don't worry too much about your rants, We do agree, though. Ryan has completely and utterly blown it. There was a group of folks willing to really pitch in and push BPL ever higher, but he p*ssed it away. It's the main reason I became an MLIFEr, I wanted to attend the yearly meetings in Bozeman and really have a hand in building BPL to be ever so much better. Sad, really. But f*ck him.

**********************

Ignore the distractors. They have their opinons; you have yours.

I agree with you. I raised a similar issue with Ryan two years ago

Many of us hear and share your frustration, but we've also seen that member input – even when openly solicited – produces very few results. To what extent that input is considered, I really do not know. The only time it was really a factor was during the design phase of the BPL backpack – which ultimately did not sell well.

The other times – what to do about the BPL store and who could sell items on the Gear Swap Forum – I feel were attempts to validate decisions that Ryan had already made.

From a purely pessimistic viewpoint, I have always felt that the whole Life Membership offer was little more than a desperate attempt to quickly raise capital to meet a potential cash flow issue (maybe bills for store inventory or to cover the costs of closing the CA warehouse and moving inventory to MT?). Incentives were offered without a good plan of how to deliver them later.

Bottom line – IMO, nothing is going to change significantly, no matter how many members protest, suggest, or whatever. Ryan is busy with his guided tours and BPL classes. These are a source of income; BPL has been reduced to essentially just a series of forum and articles by mostly no-name authors, which are of only passing interest. I would love to be proven wrong.

***************

I meant to reply to this PM earlier, but got distracted. Things seem to have reached a bit of balance in the forums, of course the issue that you're concerned with hasn't been addressed.

I didn't express it in your thread because I don't want to stamp all over the feelings of those who get uptight about any kind of complaint, but I do feel there is a double standard going on in BPL when RJ can be excused and let off the hook, but people like Bob Mullen and Bender can be raked over the coals as if they don't have other concerns in their lives. I'm not sure why Ryan gets special treatment and status.

Anyway, while I agree with your points and think about them as well, none of it is worth getting stressed or emotionally overwhelmed by it. Take care of yourself, first.

---

It's sad, but the only guarentee in life is death.

******************

I don't like the lack of explanation when threads or posts are deleted unless it's obvious spam or inappropriate. I believe that an explanation should be posted for a thread deletion or an individual PM/email sent if a post is removed. I agree that the BPL approach of not getting involved in forum disputes goes to far, laying out reasonable rules and explanations for actions would be greatly preferred.

*****************

Ryan's dedication to BPL, communication abilities and leadership skills are apparently MIA.

The school is apparently struggling, unless you are a online noob, or BSA, they offer nothing this year.

*****************

I've been tuning into BPL for a couple years and after the deletion of the 'Is life membership worth it thread' I've decided to throw in the towel.

I knew from the get go that the Mlife offering was a cash grab from the get-go and never bothered. The guys and gals at BPL simply didn't offer enough editorial content to make it worth it… not even close. That is when I seriously began to doubt the leadership and direction.

Forward a year or two and thread 'why aren't you a member?' comes up (11 months ago). People are confused as to why they should join. For days if not weeks, RJ's on-staff apologists run interference for him. He eventually does post and panders like a politician offering timely change and improvement… again, 11 months ago. Then he does his Howard Hughes impersonation (cue the 'Poof' sound effect until…

the 'Cottage Stagnation' gem of a thread where his brief diatribe attacks the very people who make his theology possible… Again people are confused and/or upset. Then the apologists arrive and next… the crickets (cheap, cheap, cheap).

In my opinion RJ did what anyone else would do. Try to make money off of a passion. Everyone is making cash of the internet somehow and why not try. Internet + a Passion = $$$. Except he forgot about the one crucial and missing component…Effort.

Turns out you can't run a business without a little effort. Sure, he found Dave C. to write some articles but that's is far as it goes. And in my opinion that's as far as it will go, because like the homepage says we're a community. The community will do the work and he will cash the checks. And then you go and let the truth be known that Mlife isn't worth it. Are you really surprised to see the thread disappear? Can't say I am.
In reality, BPL.com is the forum. The knowledge comes from the members. Who really gives a rat's ass about how breathable 5 rain jackets are? The articles are window dressing to get the new customers in and spend the money. Reminds me of the tonic salesmen in the 1800's. Lots of claims and very little substance.

I've been backpacking for over twenty years and the only thing I have learned from this site are the existence of Tarp Tent, ULA and Levagaiters.

Sorry about the novel. Just dropping you a line to say I understand where you're coming from. The frustration of multiple issues festering.
I wouldn't hold my breath on any response, save RJ's apologists. After all, this all came up a year ago and what has changed?

Sad times at BPL.

***************

And good luck on getting answers at BPL. I agree it's very frustrating and while they do have the right to delete anything without notice, since they run it as a business, that's just very bad practice.

**************

Ken the whole deltetion issue is not good. I do appreciate you calling them out on it, and I too at times share your frustration with BPL..
I know your intentions are well meant and good. To be honest I just don't see BPL continuing in another few years.

***************

Thank you, too, Ken, for having the courage to speak up and say what everyone else was afraid to say. It is because of you that I had the courage to open my mouth. Unfortunately, I'm doubting the future of BPL. There are too many signs of a dying business, and part of that is Ryan loss of enthusiasm.
Anyway, hope you're doing all right. It's been quite frustrating, hasn't it.

****************

Still unhappy with the lack of business ethics from Ryan.

Asked a polite question.

****************

Do they want me to ignore their question on interest in a MLIFE class for months, or would they appreciate an answer sooner than that.
******************

I feel Ryan is just out for the buck doing what he loves to do and we are supposed to be his means while he gives back as little as possible only when he has to. Like faithful followers of the church of jorden we should just have faith that he will continue this. Good Luck Ken

******************

I agree with your stance that BPL has not fulfilled their obligation.

*****************

Thanks for showing me Ryan's letter. The website is quickly becoming obsolete. With the advent of Blogs that cater to the backpacking world with no perceived (or real) hidden agenda, these are becoming preferable to me. I still really like the BPL forums, however.

As I read (and re-read) the letter, I feel that the MLife promotion was really a cash grab to permit Ryan to buyout a partner immediately, with a.) no 'vendor holdback' on the part of the partner (nice! He gets to take cash off the table immediately) and b.) based on a subsidy to the debt that Ryan would have had to take to pay out the partner. I don't buy the 2008 economic collapse reason for the misdirection of the site. Really Ryan?

The Mlifers are effective debt holders of this site with very little if no compensation for lending. No measurable benefit over standard membership and certainly no financial interest! If I was an Mlifer, I would be pissed too. You were lied too.

There is no benefit to the articles anymore (see my commentary about the blogs above) and the forums are free.

***********************

With all the talk of shareholders and business models it just solidifies the fact (not that I ever had any other illusions) that BPL is a business. To you and I and many others it is a community, but to it's owners, it is a business. Fair enough, I have no qualms about that, they have to pay the bills. But it certainly points to the fact that at the end of the day, their interests are not necessarily our interests. And I honestly do find it to be a bit sleezy to literally charge people to be able to give feedback and "strategic advice" to a business. I think BPL should be giving the incentives/rewards to those that wish to spend meaningful time to help Ryan's family business grow. It doesn't sit well with me.

In the end, I just don't feel like I have too much of a stake in it all. To be honest, I'm pretty "over" gear and reviews. I don't see much happening in the way of sharing philosophy and technique that isn't already being said on the forums. I feel like the forums and many personal blogs out in the world are actually quite a bit ahead of BPLs editorial content these days.

But BPL is a great hub, a place to meet and talk and share, and it is still very valuable to me on that level.

Problem for BPL with this, I suppose, is that it really gives me little incentive, other than simply wanting to be supportive, to contribute financially. 99% of what BPL provides- for me- could be provided in the context of a free forum, not a business.

******************

Ah, Ryan. He's a lousy businessman, but so many BPLers are always willing to give him yet another chance. I don't really understand it, but it is what it is, I guess. The funny thing is, I started looking at some older posts, and his letter to us contained much the same information as a post of his last October – so very little new info, but folks are like "thanks for your openness Ryan!" and "thanks for letting us know what's going on!" People give him so much slack, and he p*sses on it time and time again. Ryan was never part of my BPL experience, so I've never really cared whether or not he was around.

******************

And I do appreciate a copy of the letter. I honestly think BPL is barely surviving from a funding standpoint. No staff. I should have known something was up when Sam left, the store closed, and Ryan was MIA. I give it a few months only.

---

*****************

Don't see why people keeping thinking the money is the problem. The money was delivered. Ryan completed his buyout. The problem is RJ, all talk, unable to keep his end of the offer.

He still has not addressed his active online community regarding any of the issues publicly raised over the past many months. One email to MLife. And then he said not to discuss it.

****************

Unfortunately, for Ryan, BPL won't be getting any more financial support from me. I wouldn't recommend a membership anymore, as i have in the past. I just looked back at SOTMR from years past, particularly the shelter review from 08….wow, what a difference in content quality. No excuses.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

We have one moderator, in a time zone well outside peak forum activity, and an owner that has been missing for years.

We need community moderators and admins more than guidelines.

[Ken Thompson]

I emailed the above post to Ryan and Roger. They both replied. Here is what the boss has to say.

Hi Ken,

Thank you for passing these comments along. I've read them all.

Please encourage anyone who is frustrated to contact me directly, especially if they have specific questions about why I'm making certain decisions.

I'd at least like the chance to have personal contact with people who are disappointed so I can have a meaningful dialogue one-on-one with them and give them personal attention specific to their individual concerns.

Thanks for considering this request,
Ryan

He can be reached at ryan(at)backpackinglight.com

Here's your chance everyone. I of course would love to see the discussion here on the forum, out in the open.

[Roger Caffin]

> We have one moderator, in a time zone well outside peak forum activity,
Which has a real benefit, in that I have time to think about things rather than shooting from the hip. It also means that I get to see what others think about the matter before I open my big trap.

> We need community moderators and admins more than guidelines.
At the definite risk of being hugely inflammatory, I think what we need is more self-moderation.

Why should admins and moderators have to do all the work when it could be done (much more quietly) by the readers who are posting?

Cheers

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Cameron

I have told once already: if you want a refund, email Ryan. Apparently you have not done so.

Yours
Roger Caffin

[Bill Burk]

I think the code should not use a word with negative connotations "spite".

I also think the humor regarding spending too much time here fell flat.

[Infra Greg]

I don't have a problem with the draft guidelines and code of conduct. They might appear a little subjective to some, and I'm guessing the fear is that some all powerful moderator will be censoring and banning to their heart's content.

Most websites with forum struggle with administrating forums because in the majority of cases there are a bunch of posters who do not know how to discuss and debate an issue without resorting to abuse. For whatever reason, there is some driving force to have the last word, to win the debate, and to feed a very insecure ego.

But really, at the end of the day, it's not hard. In fact it's pretty simple. We could actually just do with two rules.

1. Don't be a di*ckhead
2. If you are, you'll be removed from the forum.

Of course we can argue for decades as to what it means to be a di*ckhead and how it's subjective, and maybe it's a just a bit of heat of the moment banter, and you started it so I'm just doing the same back to you, and why should I have to put up with you abuse and why can't I abuse you back, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Fact is, people spend too much time being concerned about others behaviours to justify their own bad behaviour. Ignore what other's are saying on a forum and spend more time making sure your own behaviour is impeccable.

Ask yourself why if someone abuses you on a forum why you feel they way you do, why you have to resort with equal (or worse) abuse, what will happen if you don't take the bait and get caught up in an endless cycle of negative conversation, why it's so important to win the arguement, etc, etc?

Whether we like it or not, the only way to deal with abuse, trolls and pests on forums is to ignore them until either they "die" out and/or a moderator removes them. IN most cases it's impossible to change a posters attitude and behaviour and the best you can do is make sure your own behaviour is positive, constructive and non-abusive.

The last thing to consider is that it's not an easy job running a website, trying to keep it interesting and useful for people plus trying to regulate moronic behaviour from adults who should know better. So instead of throwing rocks, take a minute to contemplate the challenges of trying to create a nice space whilst constantly having some people who get off on trying to dominate the roost.

[Ron D]

+1 Greg

"But really, at the end of the day, it's not hard. In fact it's pretty simple. We could actually just do with two rules.

1. Don't be a di*ckhead
2. If you are, you'll be removed from the forum."

[Kattt]

"+1 Greg

"But really, at the end of the day, it's not hard. In fact it's pretty simple. We could actually just do with two rules.

1. Don't be a di*ckhead
2. If you are, you'll be removed from the forum."

I would agree with this except what constituted being a dickhead is very subjective and that really is the problem some of us have with moderation.

I second Tom's post instead.

[Infra Greg]

It sure is subjective and I understand the pitfalls. However, I find when people get all philosophical about it, it gets all wordy and complicated.

But really, it's not too hard to see very clearly when someone is just out to to hurt someone, or destroy a thread. The "offending" poster even knows it.

Saying all that, moderation does depend on someone who is very balanced and has their head screwed on the right way. And has a very strong ability to reflect fairly on their own feelings, thoughts and intentions.

To be honest, I'm a little suprised to find that on a site such as this there is so much vitriol. I mean it's a not about politics, or religion, or world views, etc where views can get very heated.

It's about gear, and trails, and mountains, and camping and hiking, etc, etc. How hard is it to offer an opinion on that without resorting to abuse?

I might think a tent is great. Another poster might not. So what? It's a tent :-)

[Hiking Malto]

"I might think a tent is great. Another poster might not. So what? It's a tent :-)"

That your problem. You shouldn't be using a tent. You're a wanna be pack sniffing, section skipping heavy weight. Your tent is probably made of canvas and it likely a six person tent for just yourself. How dare you?

[Infra Greg]

"I might think a tent is great. Another poster might not. So what? It's a tent :-)"

That your problem. You shouldn't be using a tent. You're a wanna be pack sniffing, section skipping heavy weight. Your tent is probably made of canvas and it likely a six person tent for just yourself. How dare you?

He,he,he :-)

[Dave Triano]

Yep, you got it Greg.

In many environments that I have frequented for 'online recreation', one thing has become VERY clear: Even though I feel at home, like I own the place, and I may want to exert my 'influence'…

THE SITE DOES NOT BELONG TO ME.

It's not your clubhouse, dude. If you want to make the rules, or if you feel 'offended', or feel some necessity to attempt to discredit, insult, or 'remove' the clubhouse founder,,,,,

GO MAKE YOUR OWN CLUBHOUSE.

Get it?

-Dave

[Nick Gatel]

I don't have much experience with online forums — actually just two. BPL for the past 5 years, and PUX (popupexplorer.com), a tent trailer forum, for 10 years.

PUX has a two rules:

1. Be nice
2. No discussion of the 3 G's (God, guns, and government)

Break the rules and a thread posting will be deleted. If a thread starts down the 3 G's road or if people are not nice, the thread gets locked and sometimes deleted.

PUX is a much nicer place than BPL to visit. The rules makes people behave or leave.

[Author]

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